Even that would cost money. Denying planning permission to someone can be an expensive process.
i know money wasn't always available, but at the very minimum they should have been pushing the government to sterilise the land so it couldn't be built on.
To be fair the 4 tracking feasibility study was awarded funding last year by the EU and started earlier this year.
Jim Meade was at the Oireachtas Transport Committee yesterday and was asked when there would be an update, and he stated that the study was nearing completion, and he expected that it could be published early next year.
That's where this is coming from.
Those projects are fairly advanced though in terms of what they can do.
They are also already funded.
What I think is happening here is that Irish Rail are using the recent publicity on the timetables to look for a slice of the Apple money. Election szn.
I’d prefer DART Underground but I’m fairly sure the NTA are hostile to it and we won’t get movement on that until DART+.
They would still have needed funding to prepare the options for the project - that has only been provided via the EU recently.
I absolutely agree that DART+ North and additional track capacity should have been one project, but again this is all dependent on funding and what is being made available by government.
The good thing is that the timetable issues have put the lack of capacity to the fore in terms of the travelling public and politicians.
Including quad tracking in dart+ could have added a billion to headline costs. Politicians are simple creatures, they react emotionally to headline figures.
The recent timetable chaos in IÉ isn't surprising to IÉ. They knew it wasn't doable with current infrastructure but doing it none the less served as a demonstration of the need for quad tracking to those in power
Agreed, but IE, TII and NTA should have had a Northern Line 4 tracking draft project prepared for many years, so that least they could get moving if funds became available. To me the real scandal is why 4-tracking was not in the DART+ Northern Programme from the start, and even if it got dropped at least the transport operators could say "I told you so" when the inevitable acute congestion arises.
More money can't really change the current glacial projects which are victims of Ireland not having a usable planning process.
As if there has been funding for new projects chucked at them right left and centre for century?
The state is only starting to fund a modest amount of public transport infrastructure after 100 years of managed decline.
Because there's specific EU funding for this stage of the process.
I suppose it's good to see it at least acknowledged but it'd presumably need mass CPO of gardens and some houses as well as lots of disruption and line closures, so it'll just end up the same as everything does, bogged down in delays and controversy and increasingly watered down with every iteration.
Also it isn't in the NDP so why are they spending time and money on this instead of focusing resources on the glacial progress of their existing projects?
Cannot really blame IÉ for the lack of funding from the government for such projects.
In fairness, they haven't had funding to do more than the bare minimum for decades. The need for the various Dart+ projects have been incredibly obvious for decades too, but it's only when Irish politicians signed up to reduce emissions that IR got the funding to even look into these projects.
I get that IR hasn't exactly been a beacon of good governance and forward planning, but it's a bit over the top to solely blame them for issues that ultimately stem from decades of public transport hostile governments.
Irish Rail is going to be focused on Dart Plus for the next while, it would be brilliant if they could have four tracking of the Northern line going through the planning process as Dart Plus is being constructed, and then ready to start construction as soon as Dart Plus is finished.
And hopefully the line to Navan as well.
The dogs in the street could have predicted the need for four tracking the northern line, but it feels like IE and NTA have only woken up to this reality far too late IMO.
Good to see some focus on this. The disaster of the recent timetable changes proves how much this is needed. One would almost think it was disaster by design!!! Either way, the 4-tracking will certainly have increased support now.
Hopefully it can be fast tracked.
https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2024/10/09/irish-rail-to-unveil-plans-for-new-tracks-through-north-dublin/
That's not how it works. It just goes back and forth for years, at huge costs, and the deal gets done at the last minute. Everyone wins except Irish Rail and the tax payer.
I see. I thought there were some judicial review documents available somewhere. Is it available on the DART+ website?
It's in the responses to the consultation process.
I think the Maxol on Constitution Hill that was very much in the way of Luas Cross City may have got a wedge on a similar basis.
Where have you seen this information?
It's not a great precedent but at this stage and with the importance of the project just give them what they're asking for.
I think you are correct, the Burkes and McGownes are waiting for a golden handshake on the steps of the high court. That's why they haven't sought media attention for their JRs.
I don't know how the cpo process works but could this simply be down to horse trading? I mean presumably an independent valuation has been done, and then a cpo offer of valuation+x has been made. Then maybe a bit of haggling between the legal teams with ultimately IE making a final (and hopefully fair) offer, and then if the owner doesn't want to accept they threaten the JR. And now it's let's see who blinks first?
It really seems like you're angry about things which have zero evidence.
As someone who actually uses the Maynooth train line. I can assure you I'm only angry about the length of time it is taking IE to progress this project. If you need evidence of this, please scroll up, and up, and up, and up. I'd go down tonight and burn Gowan Motors to the ground if I thought it would speed things up, but they are not the rate-limiting factor here.
I'm just bemused by the inability of IE to deliver anything remotely complex, I'm long past angry on that front. If you need evidence of this, ask anyone who's needed to get a train or DART in the last few weeks how they would rate the PM skills of IE.
These crowd are perfectly entitled to take a JR, but that doesn't mean that they will win, nor does it mean that IR made a mistake in following this course.
I never said they will win it, and maybe this is genuinely the best solution for Ashtown, but IE's handling of this issue meant a JR was inevitable. Calling it a "horse's ass" would be an affront to horses and asses everywhere.
and indeed expect them regardless of the length of consultation.
This is my fundamental problem. What if the deadline for lodging a JR had passed with no submission? Do you honestly thing IE were ready to break ground?
Why aren't they proceeding asafp with improvement works that have nothing to do with Ashtown?
I haven't seen anyone "pick gaping holes" in IR position.
I'd be happy to do so but people really don't like it when I do.
There is a 2nd judicial review on the courts.ie search in the name of Burke Brothers.
I can't post links yet but the reference is H.JR.2024.0001140
I haven't seen anyone "pick gaping holes" in IR position. It really seems like you're angry about things which have zero evidence. As far as I have seen, with everything I have read, it comes across as if government bodies are well aware of the potential for JRs, and indeed expect them regardless of the length of consultation.
The fact is that IR could indeed have taken due consideration of the closure of these businesses, and going ahead with these plans would still be the right path. With planning like this, it is not necessary to completely satisfy every objection along the plan, otherwise there would be no CPO for the motorway projects, there'd be no CPO for the Intel Leixlip plant.
I don't disagree, and of course there's no solution that will keep everyone happy.
But look at it from their perspective, Plan A comes out, IE have been working on this for years, this is the preferred option.
Only then there's a big public uproar about the loss of the stables, so IE come back with Plan B and suddenly the stables are saved but these businesses are facing the axe. So now we don't know, is this really the best solution for the train line, or the most expedient one?
So if I'm Mr Burke, I'm going to wonder why the stables are sacrosanct and my business (which was there long before IE gave a shite about this train line) is suddenly expendable. Sure, IE can say "we'll compensate you" but what if they don't want that, what if they want to continue the business they've spent years and years building up?
Again, I understand that there's no perfect solution here, but at the same time, characterising the objections as 'delaying tactics' or 'disrupting things for everyone else' is unfair IMO. Expecting people to just roll over and suck it up for the greater good is not realistic. People are just as entitled to apply for a JR as IE are to apply for an RO, particularly if their objections during consultations were not addressed.
My takeaways here are;
I'll say it again, like I've been saying since the start of this process - IE simply cannot handle anything of this magnitude. Any objections are manna from heaven for them because it gives them a scapegoat for not having done anything. It has to be taken out of their hands and they should be brought on board when the work is done and the trains need to be driven.
Gowan Auto (Bright since a sale of the retail arm last year) have multiple other sites across the city and could easily move one or more brand from Navan to one of those and reduce the space demands. Indeed, they only recently enough moved the Ford dealership in to the site, despite knowing this might happen.
Gowan Motors are losing 80 car spaces. For a business that buys and sells cars, that is a pretty significant impact.
IE's own assessment is that Burke Bros cannot continue to trade after the work.
