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Child Item

Secondary school place shortages and repeating of class in primary schools.

political analyst

25 years ago, the repeating of classes (i.e. 4th class, 5th class etc) in cases where primary pupils were struggling academically or not at the minimum age of eligibility for a place in a secondary school (if that school had that rule) or, having completed 6th class in primary school, were considered by their parents to be too young to go to secondary school straight after and thus repeated 6th class, was considered normal.

It seems that the repeating of primary classes has been abolished - what is the reason for it being abolished, if that's what has happened? If it had not been abolished then children who have finished primary education but cannot get places in secondary schools would not be stuck at home on school days - as can be seen in the following case.

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2024/0912/1469617-tullamore-school-places/

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Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368803/secondary-school-place-shortages-and-repeating-of-class-in-primary-schools

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365459/is-norma-foley-a-visionary

Norma Foley has been described by many here as a "visionary" and a genius.

Maybe entitled people expecting places in secondary schools should adjust their expectations downwards?

Trust in Norma.

Strumms

25 years ago there were 3.75 million people living here. Now there are 5.3 million at a conservative estimate.

Many existing schools and classrooms can’t really expand for this extra demand. So it’s going to become another problem for us citizens and ‘our’ governments…. Or as demonstrated, it already is.

There isn’t a place shortage. There is an un-stoppable and ever increasing over demand for education services that up to not long ago have been ok.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/01/04/cost-of-building-hundreds-of-schools-soars-amid-construction-inflation/

Obviously the extra demand due to the ‘ temporary protection ‘ Ukranian situation is a real drain and pressure issue on our money and resources. That’s outlined unambiguously in the above article…

Mrs OBumble

Small-towm minds cannot wrap their minds around going to another town for a service. FFS.

The mammys need a kick up the backside, and made to get their kids enrolled somewhere.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122611002#Comment_122611002

Thats not always possible Bumble. Schools have catchment areas and kids may not be eligible to even apply for the school in the next town 15 miles away! Transport is also an issue as in rural areas we dont have public transport at all. School buses only bring children to secondary schools in their nearest town. Its not that simple at all Bumble - where I live if your child doesnt get a place in secondary ( which is rare but does happen ) a fee paying school is the only option left which isnt an option for all either.

Wanderer78

yes, lets blame the immigrants and the parents, that ll definitely solve this issue, and lets not mention teaching isnt exactly as attractive anymore as it once was, with the rapid rise in mental health issues and other dysfunctional behaviors with young people, and the serious lack of resources provided in trying to appropriately deal with these facts!

Grayson

I'm the only person I've heard of repeating a class in primary school. And I repeated because I had meningitis and whooping cough. I missed 6 months of the school year in senior infants so I redid that year.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122611243#Comment_122611243

I know someone who kept their child back a year a few years ago - they just didn’t have the maturity and were struggling academically - absolutely all good now, they’re doing great- I know it’s a tough decision for parents to make but sometimes it’s just what the kid needs-it’s tough on things like having to make new friends etc but really worth that short term pain- I don’t know what they would have done had they not had that option

Gregor Samsa

It was more than 25 years ago, but in my school there used to be 3 or 4 guys repeating 6th class every year. We were a feeder school for the local secondary, and there were never any issues with getting a place there. They weren't too young, nor did they have any issues academically.

Purely coincidentally of course, they were always the best players on the hurling team. And for some reason, the hurling team always did very well, with 3 or 4 guys who were bigger, stronger and faster than the competition.

Trampas

Catchment is becoming more and more in schools and doesn’t help building hundreds and thousands of properties in areas and not a classroom built for all the kids moving in. I’ve seen developers mention private schools where spaces are available to send kids and same number of spaces across multiple developments. Nothing against the properties but the infrastructure and amenities etc are an afterthought

LastApacheInjun

My brother stayed back in first class, and my cousin stayed back in third class. Both were flying afterwards, both were probably ADHD and were struggling academically the first time around.

Also, when I was younger the cut off for starting junior infants was that you had to be four years old by 30 September of the year you started. There were three or four kids in my junior infants class who were three years old and turning four during the September. The vast majority of the rest of us were four years old - I don't actually remember anyone being five and starting junior infants. Back then all the mammies were at home, and probably counting down the days until you could start school. There was no montessori classes back then. There's no way they'd have you at home for another year because "you weren't mature enough to start". Lots of these younger kids were the ones who stayed back a year eventually.

Now, the cut off for primary is that you must be four by 30 June before starting. Most kids starting in JI are five, with a small number being 4.5+. The ECCE year means you can have your child do a second ECCE if they're not mature enough for primary school yet. That probably cuts out loads of the kids who would have stayed back a year in times gone by.

And yes, most primary schools are bursting at the seams. They can't really be encouraging parents to keep a child back a year because they simply don't have the spaces for them.

Floppybits

I stayed back in 3rd class and there was no problem. Didn't know anything about it, my mother spoke to the principal about it and they agreed that I could stay back, I wasn't happy about it but it was probably the best thing that happened for me. This was back in the 80's so I am not sure what happens now. That year there were 6 kids that stayed back. The problem with the school system then is that all the kids are different and some kids will pick things up faster than others and other kids will struggle, nothing to do with learning disabilities just the way they are, not sure if this is the way now.

witchgirl26

The reason for less children repeating classes or staying back in primary school now compared to 20 odd years ago is largely due to the introduction of ECCE which prepares children for school in a lot of ways. Also that most schools identify problems with learning that some children may have (whether its something diagnosed or just taking them a bit longer to click into something) & have the facilities to have them go to a different class for extra help with reading or maths for example so that they catch up with their peers in the class. It's also been recognised as possibly causing some emotional trauma to children if they are older being held back as it causes them to have to leave friends & peer groups which can have a huge impact on a child. That's why teachers are reluctant to hold a child back unless there is a real need & it is very much in the best interest of the child as opposed to just being on request.

Having more children repeating primary school years is not going to solve the issue of them not getting a secondary school place because they'll just be going a year later where there could be even more children applying for those places. Realistically the only thing that is going to solve the issue with lack of secondary school places is the radical idea of planning for them.

In the area I am there are 5 primary schools. 1 of them is very large but the others are more medium size. There are 2 secondary schools, 1 of which is only new enough. There are not enough spaces so a lot of the kids go on the bus to other schools nearby that they might be able to get in due to parents having gone there or relatives or having siblings there already. When they gave planning permission for all the housing estates in the area, they planned the primary schools but not the next level & there in lies the fundamental problem. The increase in places in secondary schools (either through new schools opening or funding for existing schools for new teachers/buildings) has not matched the increase in primary places.

Glurrl

Why Should they have to?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122611002#Comment_122611002

The mammys and the daddys.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368803/secondary-school-place-shortages-and-repeating-of-class-in-primary-schools

This would not affect secondary school numbers for more than a single year, and even then, only by an impossibly small amount.

The pupils that repeated would still end up going to secondary, a year later, using up a place.

Did you apply more than three seconds thought to this "idea"?

jimmycrackcorm

It seems that the repeating of primary classes has been abolished - what is the reason for it being abolished

We now have SNAs to help children who are struggling.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122612279#Comment_122612279

…and theres clearly not enough of them, and the fact, they general have very poor pay and condition's, and are commonly poorly supported in their roles, therefore can be very ineffective in their roles…..

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122612273#Comment_122612273

The secondary school that my sisters attended used to have a minimum age of 13 by the start of the academic year - that's what I was basing my point. The children in the case about which the RTÉ article that I linked in the OP was written probably would still go to secondary school next year if they repeated 6th class - I can't envisage the primary school principal denying them that.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122612565#Comment_122612565

You point doesn't make any sense, though.

All it does is move the demand one year forward; meaning that within a year it is completely ineffective; if it could ever be noticed before.

Plenty of primary schools are full to the gills too.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122612572#Comment_122612572

Fair point.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122612565#Comment_122612565

I think a lot of schools have removed that as children can start primary anywhere between the age of 4 & 6. Now some primary schools have a cut off date for turning 4 before the year starts (usually end of April or May) to ensure there isn't a massive age gap in the year. However its very difficult now for secondary schools to enforce a minimum age because it will automatically rule out pupils who will then potentially have no where to go & would be on to the department of education to get them a place. A quick look at the secondary schools in my area admissions policy one says that they cannot be under 12 years old when starting the school, the other doesn't mention age at all anymore.