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Child Item

Roundabouts—give way to the right

moonage

The Rules of the Road say "give way to traffic coming from the right or already on the roundabout".

I find this is somewhat ambiguous. If a vehicle on a junction to your right is approaching but hasn't yet reached their give way lines but you have reached yours, do you have to give way to them or not?

My view is that if you can pass your give way lines before the vehicle to your right can pass theirs, then you are technically on the roundabout and have priority. The circle of the roundabout is the major road and the junctions are minor roads. "Give way to traffic coming from the right" is there because the roundabout is one way and we go clockwise around it.

What say you?

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Shellfishfcuker

It's fairly simple. The vehicle on your right has priority. If your action causes that vehicle to deviate, YOU are in the wrong.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496842#Comment_122496842

Your primary legal obligation is to avoid collisions.

Woodcutting

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499238#Comment_122499238

You should always drive at a speed where you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear. Recently I had someone enter too fast when I was on the roundabout and I had to slow. I was easily able to adjust speed because I was driving at a speed where I could stop in the distance I could see to be clear

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122500044#Comment_122500044

You're wrong. Two of the stated reasons for employing roundabouts in the arules of the toad are to improve flow of traffic and reduce pollution. This means a car approaching a roundabout at a slow speed would need to yield to another car also approaching the roundabout from the right if continuing onto the roundabout would cause that other driver to have to stop to avoid a collision with you.

Its not a race to get to get onto the roundabout first to claim right of way.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503195#Comment_122503195

In this example there was plenty of time for the car to the left to enter the roundabout before the dashcam car got there, there was also a car already on the roundabout that dashcam driver should have slowed down more to allow them to safely exit.

Even still, dashcam driver managed to safely navigate the roundabout even though the car to the left drove over the roundabout and dashcam car guy also tried to drive in a straight line instead of following the curve

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505006#Comment_122505006

No. What you've done there is taken a statement about reducing pollution in the ROTR (itself a guidance document and not actual law) and then extrapolated from that that traffic approaching a roundabout doesn't need to give way to traffic already on a roundabout. That's not stated in the ROTR - and it goes against a fundamental rule of the road.

Similarly, in post #17 you claimed that:

"The rules of the road say you have to yield to drivers approaching the roundabout from the right, even if they're not already on the roundabout"

That's another extrapolation. The ROTR does not say that.

If you can point to anything in the road traffic act or case law that demonstrates that traffic approaching a major road (which a roundabout is) from a minor road and passing a yield sign to enter it has priority over traffic already on the major road, I'm all ears.

Woodcutting

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499853#Comment_122499853

Correct. The entrance is a yield situation. You do not have to stop at at yield sign if you can safely go. That is the difference between yield and stop. At stop you must stop, a fact seemingly unknown to many drivers

Woodcutting

That dashcam guy sounds like a judgemental clown eager to spot any little error. Why shouldn't the learner be near an airport, he'll have to eventually. Maybe he lives near the airport

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505230#Comment_122505230

I haven't, I have interpreted the meaning of the concept of 'yield' to mean that a car entering a roundabout must give way to Vehicles approaching from the right unless it is safe to enter the roundabout.

In the example above, the red car is going at 5kph, entering the roundabout from a blind entrance at 5kph, the yellow car has a clear view of the traffic on the roundabout and the right right most entrance is clear

In your opinion, just because the red car 'could' make it onto the roundabout before the yellow car, he would then claim the 'right of way' enter the roundabout at 5kph, and force the yellow car to evade him by pressing hard on his brakes to avoid a collision.

In my interpretation, (the correct interpretation) the red car should stop, and the yellow car should continue and the red car should join the roundabout after the yellow car passes.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505437#Comment_122505437

No, the yellow car has put himself in that situation by approaching the roundabout too fast, misunderstanding priority and a fundamental rule of the road and driving without due care and consideration for other road users. And no amount of waffle about traffic flow and "avoiding pollution" changes that.

The red car hasn't forced him to do anything. But because so many drivers (as you have done) think the yellow car has priority, the red car has to wait to avoid being wiped out by a dangerous driver.

Visibility? As i already said, road engineers deliberately restrict visibility at roundabouts to try to discourage drivers from blowing through them like the yellow car plans to do.

On what planet are people on that they think approaching major roads at high speed gives them priority over road users who are already on the major road.

Who has priority in both the situations below. Answer, blue followed by green followed by red.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505588#Comment_122505588

Why make the Audi driver drive at 5 gazillion kph? In my example 50kph is a reasonable speed to enter a roundabout where they can see that the roundabout is clear of traffic as they approach it. (lots of roundabouts on roads where the speed limit is 80kph, down to 60kph/50kph for the roundabout and back to 80kph after)

The car coming from the left, will have seen that there is a vehicle about to enter the roundabout from their right, and it is not safe to enter the junction from almost a standing start

Also in your example, You have shown the green car not having visibility of the red car, so there is no reason for the green car to yield to the red car.

What in your opinion is the maximum safe speed to enter a roundabout if the way ahead is clear of traffic as you approach?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505437#Comment_122505437

Don't agree it's a black ad white answer. If I was the red car I would proceed onto the roundabout as I would be on the roundabout before the yellow car. I'm not sure about the significance of travelling at 5kph. Seems like a theoretical scenario to support a theory. Who the hell travels at 5kph in the real world?

CR 7

I think the most relevant point is the insurance companies' interpretations of the laws, as they will be the ones appointing blame when the red and yellow cars collide.

The below for example is very clear that if you're still approaching the roundabout you give way to traffic already on it. Otherwise you have a case that if you just approach every roundabout at 80 km/h you get to take right of way from any slower moving traffic already on the roundabout which is definitely not what the laws were intended to state.

"The golden rule

Experienced drivers will tell you the same thing when it comes to using a roundabout safely, they work like clockwork, quite literally. You approach the roundabout from the 6 o'clock position, entering the roundabout by turning left so that you go around in a clockwise direction, while at the same time, giving way to traffic coming from your right, who are already on the roundabout."

https://www.aviva.ie/blog/driving/how-to-use-roundabouts/

Uncle Pierre

If the driver of the red car crosses the line I've circled in red before the driver of the yellow car crosses the line I've circled in yellow, then the red car is already on the roundabout (no matter what speed it's travelling at), and driver of the yellow car must take due care to avoid a collision or any other mishap.

Driver of the yellow car doesn't have priority just by virtue of approaching the roundabout at higher speed.

As you enter a roundabout, you don't just look right. You also look left, to assess whether the path you're about to turn into is clear, or if there's an obstruction such as slow-moving traffic, a breakdown, or maybe even a branch of one of those trees has snapped off and been blown onto the road.

In this case, driver of the yellow car should be prepared to slow down from 50 as he/she enters the roundabout, in light of another vehicle that would already be on the roundabout by the time the yellow car entered it.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505845#Comment_122505845

In my example, the yellow car is coming around a sharp bend to a blind roundabout where it's obscured by trees. They would be preparing to stop,(or enter from a rolling start if the way is clear) the other car is approaching with full visibility of the roundabout and the approach road to their right, but not to their left, but they have right away to the vehicles on their left, so any vehicle that unexpectedly tried to join from the southern exit/entrance should be yielding to them if they cannot join safely.

Akrasia

The ROTR say the driver should yield to drivers from the right who are approaching the roundabout, not just drivers who are already on the roundabout. They say this for precisely the reason I have entered in my example, slow moving vehicles trying to claim right of way by driving right out in front of faster moving vehicles who are just about to enter the roundabout.

Viscount Aggro

Its quite clear... Most busy roundabouts should be signal controlled. Nobody coming from my right side is slowing down one inch, and it's a complete FU situation.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122506513#Comment_122506513

Firstly, the ROTR are guidance, not legislation. But more importantly, they do NOT say to yield to drivers from the right who are approaching the roundabout. Instead, it just says 'yield to traffic coming from the right':

This is probably the "ambiguity" that leads people like you to believe they're right, even when they're wrong. As I've already illustrated, in the example given, if the driver of the red car crosses their line before the driver of the yellow car crosses theirs, then the red car is already on the roundabout when the yellow car enters it. The driver of the yellow car therefore cedes priority, because as the ROTR say, "you must yield to traffic … already on the roundabout".

Here's another one for you, based on your own example. Suppose those trees are part of a forest that extends all the way round the roundabout, such as I've coloured in green here:

Driver of the red car now has no visibility of what's coming up the approach road, or what speed it's travelling at. What's the driver of the red car to do?

Using your logic, they should wait there indefinitely, in case there's something approaching that they shouldn't enter the roundabout ahead of. Does that seem any way logical, rational, or sensible to you?

Seems like nonsense to me, and I certainly wouldn't want a spot like that on my commute to or from work….!

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122506928#Comment_122506928

What do you think the word Yield means?

You don't 'yield' to a car in front of you on the road, you yield to a car that is approaching you before you make a manoeuvre like changing lane, or entering a junction, or entering a roundabout . By yielding you are allowing them to pass you before completing the manoeuvre.

Yielding to people to your left makes no sense in a roundabout setting, and given that overtaking is prohibited on a roundabout, you are simply forced to slam on your brakes to not hit the car that pulls out in front of you to simply demand the right of way by getting onto the roundabout first without caring about the flow of traffic to their right.

The fact that the ROTR say to yield in both scenarios, cars approaching from the right, or cars already on the roundabout, means they do not require that a car has already 'entered' the roundabout before conferring them right of way.

The roundabout isn't the 'main road', the conceptual main road, is the roundabout, and also any lanes that feed directly onto the roundabout to the right of any driver about to enter the roundabout. Roads feeding into the roundabout should be treated the same as the roundabout itself when deciding whether to yield to traffic from the right.

Akrasia

Here's what I define 'Yield' to mean in this context

Key Aspects of Yielding:

Slow Down: Approach the roundabout at a reduced speed, ready to stop if required.
Observe the Right of Way: Give precedence to vehicles that are already on the roundabout or about to enter from your right if your entry would disrupt their path.
Proceed When Safe: After ensuring that it is safe and there is no risk of collision or interference with other road users, you may continue to enter the roundabout.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507244#Comment_122507244

Funny how you’re actually arguing against yourself here.

1. Slow Down: Approach the roundabout at a reduced speed, ready to stop if required.

In the example you posit, driver of the yellow car has no intention of slowing anywhere below 50 km/h to enter the roundabout, and certainly no intention of stopping if there’s nothing coming from their right. So they’re in breach of this one.

2. Observe the Right of Way: Give precedence to vehicles that are already on the roundabout or about to enter from your right if your entry would disrupt their path.

Note the “Give precedence to vehicles that are already on the roundabout”. It doesn’t add “but only if they’re to your right”. So, this means give precedence to vehicles that are already anywhere on the roundabout.

In the example we’ve moved on to discussing, the red car is already on the roundabout before the yellow car enters it. Therefore, driver of the yellow car should give precedence to the car that was already there.

Granted, this one is ambiguous, as it also refers to vehicles “about to enter from your right if your entry would disrupt their path”. So, there’s an argument here that driver of the red car should not enter the roundabout at all. But once they do enter the roundabout, then they’re already on the roundabout, and so the first part of the statement should apply – i.e. driver of the yellow car should give precedence to the vehicle already on the roundabout.

3. Proceed When Safe: After ensuring that it is safe and there is no risk of collision or interference with other road users, you may continue to enter the roundabout.

Back to the example you give. In that case, it’s not safe and there is a risk of collision if the yellow car continues at 50km/h into the roundabout, while the driver of the red car is also entering it. Therefore, driver of the yellow car isn’t obeying this advice in your example either.

Incidentally, you haven’t answered the question about what’s the driver of the red car to do if they can’t even see along the approach road that the yellow car is on? Are they supposed to wait there indefinitely, just in case something might be coming?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507192#Comment_122507192

Methinks you're thinking way too hard about this. Almost makes me want to advise to put away the shovel.

I wonder what the Gardai would decide if the yellow car barrelled into the arse of the red car which was already on the roundabout? Are you seriously suggesting that the red car would be in the wrong? Would you think the Garda would clap the yellow car driver on the back when he tells him I was eating road and this gobshite red car driver was in my way so I'd no choice but to ram him

Edit- got my colours mixed up

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508454#Comment_122508454

Glad to see you're of the same opinion as myself, but think you got the colours mixed up in the second part of your post, and what you actually meant was this? -

I wonder what the Gardai would decide if the yellow car barrelled into the arse of the red car which was already on the roundabout? Are you seriously suggesting that the ~~yellow~~ red car would be in the wrong? Would you think the Garda would clap the ~~red~~ yellow car driver on the back when he tells him I was eating road and this gobshite ~~yellow~~ red car driver was in.my way so I'd no choice but to ram him

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507549#Comment_122507549

This is what I'm saying. I'm talking about what the red car should do. Once the red car enters the roundabout, then the Yellow obviously needs to avoid hitting him, but the red car should not enter the roundabout because doing so would cause the yellow car to have to take evasive action and disrupt the flow of traffic and increase the risk of an accident.

Akrasia

If the yellow car crashes into the red car because the red car pulled out in front of him, then both cars would be in the wrong.

But if the red car had yielded because it was not safe to enter the roundabout, then the yellow car would have been fine to proceed as is what happens a thousand times a day at roundabouts all around the country.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508924#Comment_122508924

Thank you. A severe form of colour blindness🫣

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508965#Comment_122508965

What of kind of yellow car do you drive🤣

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508949#Comment_122508949

I'm acknowledging a level of ambiguity in that one, and that I can see it's where your point of view stems from.

But again - how that does apply if the driver of the red car has no visibility back along the yellow car's approach road, for example if the sightline is blocked by all those trees?

Granted, that's an unlikely situation. But equally unlikely is a driver entering and negotiating a roundabout at just 5 km/h, unless it's only for a split second while they accelerate from a standing start to a more normal speed.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508965#Comment_122508965

Yes, the second part of that may happen a thousand or more times a day all right.

What also happens a thousand or more times is that a driver in the yellow car's situation slows down a bit more as they enter the roundabout, in case there's any potential hazard to their left on the roundabout. Same as anywhere else you drive, you need to be thinking about what might happen ahead of you, and be able to stop or at least slow down safely if you have to, in order to avoid incident.

CR 7

The argument of having to give way to the car approaching at a higher speed seems to be a similar twisting of the legislation and rules of the road as drivers deliberately misinterpreting "you must stop at an amber light unless it is unsafe to do so". Taking that as justification to speed up through red lights and claim they were going too fast to stop safely.

Whatever about the wording being ambiguous, no reasonable person would assume that of the 2 possible interpretations, the correct one intended to encourage unsafe driving.