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The decline of FG?

Augme

Now that the full results of the 2024 are in the performance of SF, Greens and FG were the most interesting in my mind. We've threads for the other two so a thread in FG performance is much needed.

The talk amongst the media has been very positive about FG performance and in Harris' positive impact on FG. This does slightly surprise me I have to say.

FG first prefer vote percentage fell by 2.3% and they have lost seats since 2019. In the Europeam elections they first preference vote share fell by a massive 9% and they lost oen seat.

Will FG still be the largest party after the next general election? In 2011 FG won 72 seats and FF won 20. Incredible to think that just over a decade later FF could very possible overtake them. Can Harris stop the rot and what does he need to do to do that?

The dynamic between FF and FG and their voters will also be very interesting to see. They clearly transferred very well in the locals and Europeans. I've no doubt this was very much based on their fear of SF being a direct threat and rival for largest party. Will they still view SF as that big of threat, and if not, as the two parties will be direct rivals for largest party how will that impact their relationship?

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DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483889#Comment_122483889

And you believe David Cullinane, or someone else, is going to single handedly drive the revolution of the Irish public health system into a lean, efficient €23.5bn machine?

Thats the frankly absurd leap of faith that people are questioning when they say ‘why are you so sure it can’t get any worse?’

It’s up there with the level of logic applied by people who don’t see chemotherapy working so turn to homeopathy or drinking lots of orange juice because ‘it’s worth a try’.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483889#Comment_122483889

The comparison to the VHI plan could not possibly be less relevant. The difference in services provided by the public sector vs private sector is several orders of magnitude. They are functionally completely different services.

You are correct that the answer is not just more money. My point in UHL is that the issue is not so much just UHL as it is the absence of a Model 3 hospital supporting it. Fixing this would involve large capital costs - something governments the world over balk at and instead resort to short term fixes that end up more expensive in the long run. Such is the reality of cyclical democratic politics though.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483900#Comment_122483900

No , you hire their replacement based on their experience and qualifications - You don't give it to a randomer who simply claims that they will do a better job

poppers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483889#Comment_122483889

what do you think would happen in private hospitals if everyone who has a stroke, heart attack, passed out drunk etc turned up at reception and asked to be seen.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483989#Comment_122483989

But you'd definitely fire the incumbent. Looking for a replacement when nobody else has had experience you'd look at what they say they plan to do. Better than "thoughts and prayers" anyway

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122484021#Comment_122484021

They'd be seen and not left to die unlike the HSE

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122485764#Comment_122485764

Firing the incumbent broke many companies where the next management plan was unrealistic and not viable. We have had decent competent politicians from the left, the right and the center try to reform the Irish health service. None have managed a few have contained the issues involved

Any that served office in other departments have always been extremely competent in those departments but as Brian Cowen referred to it "Angola" is a different kettle of fish

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122485766#Comment_122485766

You must be joking.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486473#Comment_122486473

Do you think this would happen in a private hospital?

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/1496524/aoife-johnston-s-death-at-limerick-hospital-entirely-avoidable.html

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486440#Comment_122486440

Who are these competent politicians you speak of exactly? I can't remember any

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483889#Comment_122483889

As the population grows and people live longer we are only going to see ever increasing Dept of Health budgets. A friend of mine is an accountant in one of the biggest hospitals in the country, and was telling an anecdote about a €30,000 medical device being inserted into a 90something year old patient having surgery, who then passed away a couple of days later. The equipment did nothing to improve that patient's quality of life or extend their life. It's a cold way to look at it but it was a huge waste of money, and multiply that by thousands of patients around the country each year and you'll see why it costs over €23bn to fund the health service .

The Drugs Payment Scheme is another one, patients paying €100 per month (€80 after tax relief) for drugs that can run into the thousands. This is a good thing, don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic scheme, but it costs a fortune.

Nobody is going to get the HSE spend under control, SF, FG, or any political party. The only way would be to demolish the structure and start it from scratch.

Peter Flynt

FG now think that a €750 youth tax credit will stop the youth from emigrating.

This party is beyond stupid.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/would-a-750-tax-credit-stop-young-people-leaving-ireland-fine-gael-minister-peter-burke-thinks-so/a633610828.html

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486541#Comment_122486541

Nobody is going to get the HSE spend under control, SF, FG, or any political party. The only way would be to demolish the structure and start it from scratch.

The 'we can't fix it so let's stick with the folk who have overseen the mess' attitude is probably why FG and FF's vote share has fallen from the lofty heights of 86%.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486548#Comment_122486548

An extra €62.50 a month 😂 What is €2 a day going to do to stop someone deciding to move to Australia.

The Minister must not realise that seeing the world is almost a rite of passage for many, never mind better working conditions for nurses and doctors etc.

That €100m could be much better spent than this stupid idea.

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486493#Comment_122486493

Haven't noticed them offering to help alleviate the current situation by opening their doors, have you?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486541#Comment_122486541

That is just the defeatist attitude that FFG want to instill in us all so that we will keep voting for them instead of a competent alternative. Instead of being a sheep and following the flock we should learn to think for ourselves and see the true nature of FFG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486874#Comment_122486874

No but I also haven't heard of them not taking proper care of suspected sepsis patients or leaving their 90 year old patients on trolleys for 3 straight days

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486548#Comment_122486548

Examples like this show just how out of touch FG are with young people. Had they invested in housing and healthcare over the last 10-15 years instead of allowing the current situation to materialise our youth might actually be willing to stay

Still there's one FG politician willing to do the right thing, I hope he is capable and gets voted in in the next election

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487217#Comment_122487217

Which model in the world do you want to emulate and if it doesn't exist is that FFG's fault ? Or what is it you're missing here in its lack of creation anywhere ever ?

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486728#Comment_122486728

Remember when, as Minister for Education, Joe McHugh went to Dubai to visit teachers who left Ireland. Everyone knew what he and his officials were doing - using emigrant teachers as cover for a week long holiday/junket in the sun.

And what did they and their predecessor do about it?

Sweet FA.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122485766#Comment_122485766

I'm sorry but it's incredibly clear that you have no idea what private hospitals are capable of. If everyone having heart attacks and strokes went to private hospitals absolutely huge swathes of them would die due to lack of care.

The second anything major goes wrong with a patient in a private hospital they are transferred to HSE care. Ireland's performance on cardiac and stroke care is actually quite good.

You need to get over this obsession with VHI price plan costs. It's meaningless when discussing the HSE budget.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487440#Comment_122487440

I'm actually still laughing at the idea of this anti emigration youth tax credit. But then I stop laughing when I realise this guy is a Minister at Cabinet, proving how poor the calibre of politicians we have in Ireland really is.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487217#Comment_122487217

Same question keeps being asked and never answered, but who is the competent alternative you speak of?

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487217#Comment_122487217

Well if they're as wonderful as you say why don't they offer to pitch in and help. Oh wait, don't tell me....

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487217#Comment_122487217

Could you share some names of private hospitals which you think are doing a good job of handling emergency care?

Are you aware that the majority of private hospitals and clinics don't offer 24x7 emergency care, and so emergencies during the 14+ hours of the day when they're closed have to go to a normal public hospital, same for emergencies over weekends or national holidays.

For reference black rock clinic closes at 6 (or 5 on weekends or holidays) and has an intake charge of €235.

The beacon clinic opens at 10, closes at 7 (or 6), and isn't open during holidays or Sundays.

Same story for the Mater private. I believe neither St Vincent's private nor Bom Secours offer emergency care. So if you went there you'd be wasting your time.

So, perhaps these private hospitals need to up their game and actually offer 24x7 emergency care before they can even be considered to be equivalent to public hospitals :)

Of course, none of the above even takes into account the cost of care in private versus public.

On a personal note - I was fortunate to attend James' Hospital A&E at 10pm on Friday night not too long ago, and my emergency surgery was complete within 2.5 hours. I have private insurance, but obviously enough there were no private hospitals open which I could attend.

Perhaps the reason you don't hear of private hospitals "leaving patients on trolleys" is that the hospitals are closed when their patients need care, or they choose not to treat the condition, or they're simply unaffordable.

Perhaps the reason public hospitals are overloaded is because they treat all conditions, and are the only available option for 2/3s of most days, and definitely the only option for national holidays or weekends for most of us!

https://www.beaconhospital.ie/department-service/emergency-department/

https://www.blackrockhealth.com/emergency-department

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487641#Comment_122487641

A monkey would be a competent alternative to FFG but I'm obviously talking about the opposition parties, and have mentioned them a few times, maybe you have a listening issue?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487827#Comment_122487827

Yeah we could go on and on about private hospitals till the cows come home, fact is most people have health insurance to use them over the public hospital system which prefers to kill teenagers than give them antibiotics, meanwhile FFG become the biggest party in Limericks council chambers. One wonders

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122489028#Comment_122489028

So the private sector effectively operates on a smaller budget and aren't warzones like UHL is

In the private sector, hospitals open at 10 and close at 6, and aren't open on Sundays or holidays. Some aren't open on Saturday.

They'd be seen and not left to die unlike the HSE

In the private sector, only about half of private hospitals have an emergency department. If you show up to one without an ED, they won't leave you die. They'll provide directions to the nearest public hospital where you'll go for treatment.

I'm sure it's clear to everyone else, but private hospitals aren't what you think they are - they often do not take walk-ins, or emergencies, and pretty much never open outside of 'normal' working hours - barring the few that also open on Saturdays. Private hospitals also choose the subset of things they'll treat, and they redirect you to an actual hospital for everything else.

Public hospitals have higher attendance rates because they're open. They're also busier as a result. The solution is more funding and more places in public hospitals - or you turn private hospitals into public hospitals by mandating they provide the same level of care, not substandard levels of care.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122489010#Comment_122489010

Which opposition parties do you think would do a better job and why?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122489249#Comment_122489249

Each and every last one of them because FFG have a proven track record of complete and utter incompetence in this area

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122490309#Comment_122490309

In which area?

Assuming someone will do a better job, just because they are different, maybe isn't the best justification to vote for them.