Old thread seems to be permanently locked. It will be interesting if anything can come of this at last.
Threadbanned Posters:
This is interesting as these are not photos that are in the French file. Can you tell me where they are from.
Take a look at these photos. The gown is halfway under the block. This could not have happened by accident or by mere shoving of the block when the gown was beside it. This block was very heavy 23kg or 50lbs and we can see where the folds of the fabric are pulled down by the weight.
These photos, together with the testimony of Harbison, Gilligan and Joy show that the block was more than "on the edge" of the gown, it was very clearly on top of it.
If you don't believe this, just take a 9 inch cavity block, or even one half its weight, place it on a flat lawn and see if you can push it onto a towel. It's not possible.
The second post mortem was conducted by the French in 2008 and worked with an exhumed body which was skeletonized, so they could not make a reliable conclusion of that nature. Could you supply a quote from it?
If you look closely at these photos (and others) you can see blood stains in the orifices of the block. I can only conclude these are blood transfer marks from where it was lifted, and if it was lifted, it was used.
We also have Harbison's testimony:
"I was able to look at the ground when the body had been moved to note that there was a slight depression with blood on it where the head had lain. This indicated to me that the body bad been in that position when the blows were struck."
So her head was not resting on the block, her head was on the ground when it was struck.
Dr Harbison reported,
" I was able to look at the ground when the body had been moved to note that there was a slight depression with blood on it where the head had lain. This indicated to me that the body bad been in that position when the blows were struck."
That sounds to me like the blows to the head while on the ground caused the depression in the ground.
Thank you.
It was from this article..
https://evoke.ie/2020/05/31/life-style/sophie-toscan-du-plantier-murder-book
I believe that the large flat stone was, in all likelihood, the actual weapon. The uneven edges appear to closely resemble the damage caused to Sophie's skull.
It would also appear, from their statements, that none of the officers who were first on scene approached Sophie or attempted in any way to establish whether she was still alive.
I do not dispute that the block was on the dressing gown however it was only on the edge of it. As regards the injuries, the second post mortem, carried out in France, came to the conclusion that some of her injuries were caused when her head came into contact with the block rather than the other way round. In other words her head was either resting on the block when she was struck with the rock or she was violently pushed or thrown against it.
I too think the wine bottle may well be significant and am currently researching its origin. As regards the blood stain on the door it is possible that it was left by the murderer however I also wonder whether perhaps Alfie or Shirley approached Sophie more closely than they have ever admitted to.
Could you tell me where this was quoted as I have not seen it before.
No DNA of another person was found, bloodstains were, apparently, all Sophie's. Probably the killer left the stain as her body was found a distance away. Implies that the killer wore gloves or did some kind of clean up afterwards?
Still the doctor should have been able to state "around midnight" or "around morning", cold weather or not.
This is what I am saying.
Yes but this was quoted about the local GP's observations.
'A local GP, Dr Larry O'Connor, attended Toormore shortly after 11am and pronounced the woman dead at the scene. It was clear to Dr O'Connor, from his preliminary examination, that the woman had been dead for a number of hours. However, he could not speculate as to the time of death.'
Also the cold conditions of that morning would slow down rigor mortis possibly pushing back the time of death even further?
I am afraid, I can't answer that as I don't have that information.
It is hard to say what happened nearly 30 years ago and who spoke to whom.
I am guessing or at least it would appear that competence was not one of the atributes of most involved, neither the police nor the doctor.
As said, any doctor / GP should have given a more closer time of death at the night / morning of the murder. As far as I know a doctor was on the scene soon after the police arrived. What the doctor said to Harbison I don't know.
We only have a guess about the time of the murder that its was in the morning upon Harbison's examination and the content of the stomack and what she has eaten is more likely to be consistent with a breakfast, rather than a dinner.
It may never be solved at this stage, unfortunately. I can see why the Gardai focused on Bailey but there were other avenues as evidenced in this thread. Maybe some high tech new developments will give a new avenue.
He didn't say but from his description I think he deliberately avoiding touching the body. Garda Byrne logged his arrival at 11:10am, which is a bit more than an hour afterwards.
In relation to the concrete block, we have a lot of evidence to say it was on top of the dressing gown, not merely pushed over a corner. In the Post Mortem report. Harbison specifically refers to the dressing gown "It is of note that the cavity block rested upon this garment." There is also the statement of D/Garda Eugene Gilligan "Under the briars at the left hip of the body was a 18" inch long cavity concrete block on top of a dark blue dressing gown. " D/Garda Pat Joy said the concrete block was positioned "on what appeared to be a dressing gown folded up beside the body."
There is no ambiguity here, these men were crime scene professionals who saw the body and in some cases helped move it. D/Gda Joy took charge of the exhibits, including the concrete block. They all said it was on top of the dressing gown. It is difficult (I would say impossible) to push a 23kg block with flat surfaces, on top of a fabric garment, it would obviously rumple up. It would have to be lifted, or possibly rolled but you cannot roll a block like that by accident.
Then we have the DNA analysis done by the French in 2011. They took many swabs from the concrete block and found the victim's profile in almost all of them. Her DNA was found on all 4 long sides of the block.
I don't see any difficulty where it ended up. The killer was able to lift it and bring it down on her skull he was able to lift it again and throw it to the side, if it did not simply roll over in that direction.
23 kg is heavy, but it is not impossible to wield for a person with average strength. It is about the weight of a car battery or 5 year old child and most parents could lift a child that age. It only makes sense as a weapon when the unfortunate victim was prostrate and probably immobilized by the assault at that stage. So it is not like it was being waved about. It just had to be carried to the location.
If you have a blood pattern analysis that you or someone else has done please share that analysis and then we can understand better what you mean.
Would Harbison not have been privy to that information when he was doing the pathology examination, is there some formality where he could not include other investigators information on the report or something? Did they hold it back from him or what? Seems like a no brainer then that they would have pinned down the time of death then.
The first option of your statment yes. As said, those doctors / GPs I have spoken to said that the time of death would have been able to be determined around 2 hours, most likely around 1 hour to even 30 minutes regardless of cold weather or rain or even snow. Any doctor would have or should have had that capability.
What info was released and what not is not known to me. Apparently a doctor was at the secene in the morning? Possibly around 10 or 11am? So at that time, it should have been clear to the police whether we're speaking about midnight or 1am to say 2 or 3 am or 6 or 7 am in the morning.
Dr O'Connor, the local GP, attended within about 30 mins of the body being discovered, and as far as I know he did not touch the body. Maybe @PolicemanFox or @bjsc can confirm.
thanks Bridget I appreciate your input. What do you think was used as a weapon if not the block?
I take your point about the bottle of wine, for me personally it is highly significant, although I accept that its discovery can’t be linked to the murder via evidence.
on the other hand maybe the fact that it was ‘discovered’ at all speaks volumes.
But of course I concede that maybe it shouldn’t enter into the discussion at all.
Do you think the murderer is the one who left the bloodstain on Sophie’s door, and therefore went up to her house for whatever reason?
@tinytobe based on what you're saying do the doctors you have spoken to believe a time of death would have been determined in this case, and that it was not released, or that it was just not captured at all? I thought a physician did come to the scene a few hours later
" Given the weight of the block it is unlikely to have ended up where it was, by Sophie’s left hip, if it was used as a weapon."
It's on quite an incline, it may have rolled and come to rest against the briars there.
@bjsc can I ask if this is the scenario you propose, whether 1. the other missing block from the pump house was used as the weapon to deliver the fatal blow (and then removed from the scene?), or 2. a different weapon was used for the fatal blow (also presumably removed from the scene)
My personal view, backed up by professional blood pattern analysis, is that the block was already in situ by the gate when the attack took place. The areas which are clear of blood are called voids and were created when the block was protected from wet blood. This was, in all probability, when Sophie’s body was lying against it at some point during the attack. The block is only on the edge of the dressing gown and may well have been pushed on to it during the attack. Given the weight of the block it is unlikely to have ended up where it was, by Sophie’s left hip, if it was used as a weapon.
I have spoken to various doctors / GPs whom I know personally about this case.
They all stated that any qualified doctor would have been able to diagnose the time of death in Sophie's case to around 2 hours or less, like 1 hour or 30 minutes, even if the body had been out in the cold overnight. So any physician should have been able to state whether it was more around midnight or morning.
There would not have to have been a long wait for the pathologist from Dublin to arrive at the scene and attempt to diagnose the time of death.
The stomach contents would certainly suggest an early morning death, rather than at or around midnight.
In the photos, we can see 4 sides of the block and there are clear blood marks visible on all of them including in the orifices where it looks like the block was lifted using bloody hands or gloves. When you consider this together with the fact that the blue dressing gown was partially under the block when the body was discovered. So it must have been lifted and placed there by the killer, I cannot see how you could maintain the concrete block was in situ when she was killed. It doesn't make logical sense to me. Maybe you mean it was already lying around by the gate before the assault? I think it is obvious it came from the pumphouse, but I would be interested to hear your analysis.
The reddit thread about briar stems is linked below. In the photo it does look "snipped".
https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/s/Ygh2G2Mr4R
Forgot sketch,
And why not take the nearest block, why go round the side of the pumphouse to take one from the back wall?
The gate closed onto the corner of the pumphouse where the block is alleged to have come from, there was a spot of Sophie's blood on a stone just where the gate would pass when opening or closing. Was there a struggle, pushing and pulling there, that may have dislodged the block?
There are actually 2 blocks missing from the pump house and the blood pattern analysis on the one found by Sophie’s body suggests very strongly that it was already in situ when she was killed. The wine bottle wasn't found until 4 months after the murder and it has never been established where it originated from. And there is no evidence whatsoever that the briars were snipped.
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