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Child Item

Lack of resilience in brothers

Airyfairy12

Ive three brothers who all really struggle with everyday life, have no drive to do anything and have breakdowns over the smallest inconveniences or normal life stuff. One of them whose 28 had a falling out with two friends while he was also in a job he didnt enjoy so he tried to kill himself, he didnt talk to anyone or make any attempt to change his circumstances or his mindset around what was going on, he didnt attempt to change his job or do anything proactive, he decided instead to take a handful of sleeping tablets. He was discharged the next day and was thankfully ok, he's since quit his job and made up with his two friends. Since this he's been unemployed, living at home, living off my parents for the last 6 months, he's gone for a few job interviews but theyre all out of his reach experience and training-wise, I think its great he's reaching high but he's not doing anything to gain the experience or training he needs. Our mum cooks his meals, washes his clothes and brings him to mcdonalds once or twice a week and gives him money to socialise. He's never lived away from home and all he ever wants to do is sleep and play computer games. Another brother whose 40 has never had a job, has went to college but never used his degree, sleeps all day and plays computer games, is verbally abusive and blames everyone else for everything in his life. Says he has bad mental health and depression because of my parents. The other one is in his 30's and the same as the other two. If even the slightest thing goes wrong for any of them, they cant cope, like a breeze would cause them to retreat to bed in despair with their woe is me attitudes!

It hurts my soul to see them being so un-resilient and making no attempt to improve their circumstances, the mere notion of critical self reflection induces violent outbursts, anger and rage! They cant bare to think of themselves as responsible for their own lives. It affects me because I care about them, want them to be happy, see the strain its having on my parents, I feel helpless!

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[Deleted User]

I know someone who habitually abused a sibling of theirs and spent years convincing everyone that they were just mentally ill. In an attempt to cover up the abuse they went on a mission to discredit the sibling, triangulating with their co workers and places of employment, even going to extremes of contacting their gp surgery, telling them they were mentally ill and having them kicked out of college. When they tried to get help after attempted suicide they requested their therapists number so they could have a one to one with them and give them the same spiel. They tried to make themselves out to be this really caring person but it was just part of their need to control their victim and the situation.

I'm not saying this is the situation here but I'd be wary of drawing any conclusions or making recommendation without having all the information. There's clearly more to the story than a dysfunctional family scenario so the best advice I can offer is to just go and talk to someone op.

Airyfairy12

Thanks everyone, I appreciate every one of your comments! I am partly worried about leaving my 28 year old brother who attempted suicide, day to day he's grand but the slightest disappointment and he's in bed for days or weeks. He has no coping skills at all, he wont go on social welfare so cant access any services as he doesnt have money. Just seems like he has himself in this catch 22 situation that he wont help himself out of. Even work in a local bar or shop until he gets something he really wants or even just volunteer or get an outside hobby.. I would never push any of this on him its just frustrating to watch. Mentioning anything to my mother about the situation or about herself doing too much for them sets her off and she just starts screaming and shouting and cursing, its awful.

Im looking for jobs abroad, im thinking maybe Canada or somewhere in Europe, maybe a city in Spain in France. Ive tried to move out here but everything is so far outside my budget it would not be possible and im not living in Dublin or trying to live there.

JupiterKid

OP, I'm sorry to say but it seems to me that your family has very serious dysfunction issues - you mentioned controlling behaviour and enabling in the past from your parents in one post - and the situation your three brothers are stuck in (one in a very serious way if he has attempted suicide) are the net result of the way they were parented - the obvious double standards of your parents and mother in particular with a rather extreme case of "Irish Mammy" syndrome are definitely partially to blame for this outcome, coupled with the housing crisis that is stunting the independence and growth of an entire generation of Irish people which is already leading to very serious social issues.

I would suggest that you should aim to move out of the family home as soon as you can, get a place with your boyfriend and live your life independent of your three brothers whom you are concerned about. It sounds like all three have deep-seated mental health issues and will all need help in this regard.

This is something that is sadly becoming more and more commonplace in Western countries and in Japan due to the disgusting and deliberate financialisation of housing systems by governments and the sharp decline in the ability to access housing for those under 40.

You can only live your own life at the end of the day and this very toxic situation in your parental home is negatively affecting you which you need to address by moving out ASAP. You can only change your own situation in this regard.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361283/lack-of-resilience-in-brothers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder
Reads a lot like a personality disorder. In particular Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders).
May require a professional to navigate a way out for them.

NiceFella

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423715#Comment_122423715

I didn't realize you were living at home with them. Forget your brothers for the moment. Did you return home to save, like for a deposit? Or just couldn't afford to rent?

I would say you need to really look after yourself first here. Things are unlikely to change majorly so for your own sanity you need to plan getting out of the home. Whatever means you have to save up a few months etc and set a date to go. That's your light. Talk to your BF and try make a plan.

I know what you're up against with this type of dynamic. I have 3 sisters that my father would do absolutely anything for (they're not lay abouts now) but he'd barely give me anything. Very frustrating, until I realized that he couldn't help it. Life really isn't fair. But if I was to pick one of you's lives to have lived it would be yours. Honestly I know the situation is nuts at the moment but if you plan it out long enough you'll find it will give you peace of mind and something to work towards.

looksee

It seems to me that the problem here is your mother. She has, and continues to, enable them. You are not going to make any progress with them till she sees the light, I doubt this is going to happen. Caring for them is her reason for living, but now her age is beginning to make it more difficult. Your father does not seem to have much say in this situation? Is he just looking for a quiet life and has given up trying to influence the situation?

My suggestion would be to talk to your mother, she is the only one that can make a difference. If she does not listen to you and make some serious efforts to undo the damage she has done, then your only option is to leave, with or without your boyfriend.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423563#Comment_122423563

Its interesting that you say 'I dont want to sound uncaring' - its easy to fall into a mindset of 'what will people think of me'.

You are in a **** position, this affects your life too. You didnt ask for this.

Also, you've touched on something with the 'my mother has tried to control me' - I am sure she is part of that, when you are wondering 'what will people think of me'.

I really think you need to live your best life, to excuse a well worn cliche.

Nobody else in the house is putting you first.

Wanderer78

…these are classic signs of autism, this is more than likely the culprit, but these are difficult conversations to be had within a family, but they must be had, as others have stated, professionals are now required, contact your gp to get the ball rolling, public waiting lists could mean your brothers will be long dead before theyre called for assessments, so you may have to go private, bring your life savings!

…your brothers shouldnt go anywhere near employment until they receive appropriate help, there are specialised organisations that will help them find suitable employment, but they generally must be assessed first, and diagnosed with such disorders….

but please be aware, stats are very bad for such disorders, in regards long term employment, with most remaining long term unemployed, even with supports, so…..

best of luck

HildaOgdenx

I echo what others have said. They won't change, either your brothers or your parents.

And I can well envision what @Billyo66 said, coming to pass, the house being left to them, and the expectation that you will look after them.

The only thing you can do is get yourself out of there. Easier said than done, but if I were you, I'd be exploring every possibility, and planning my escape asap.

homer911

I thought my kids/adults were bad, but I really feel for the OPs situation

Given the suicide attempt, your parents are probably afraid to say anything. I'd suggest looking for a professional counsellor, there are deep seated issues here which the parents wont solve as they may be part of the cause

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122424070#Comment_122424070

This, OP. I've seen this dynamic in families a number of times over the years, where the male offspring are catered to, mollycoddled and completely enabled while the solo (usually) daughter is treated more or less like an indentured servant, while being held to a completely different set of standards to her brothers.

My advice to you is to get the hell out of dodge and leave them all to it. I know that's easier said than done in the current housing climate, but I also think, based on some of your previous threads, that there's quite an amount of enmeshed behaviour going on between you and the rest of your family too. You talk the talk, but there's always a reason why you can't actually just go ahead and cut the apron strings. I'm genuinely sorry if that sounds harsh, I don't mean it to be. Perhaps some counselling might be helpful for you.

Either way, your brothers (and your parents) are simply not going to wake up one morning and unlearn decades of behaviour and attitudes, so I'd park any hopes of things improving there and focus only on the things you can control.

YellowLead

Given that your mother has encouraged and enabled this dynamic their whole lives, I wouldn’t feel too sorry for her. It’s unfortunate of course but everybody is an adult here.
I would encourage you to leave them to it and set up on your own and that way you’re not seeing it day to day. Emigrate if that’s what you want - is this a new relationship? Is it really that amazing? I wouldn’t let it stop you going, you only get one chance at life.
I know a woman who changed jobs and does some kind of home help for the elderly, you didn’t need qualifications and she rents a small studio. I know it’s hard to get anywhere these days, but look at what you can do to get a job where you can afford 800 - 1k a month for a room somewhere.
The best thing here is to leave them all at it, you can try talking to them - encouraging the lads to take up physical excercise, tell the mother she’s ruining their lives etc but if they won’t listen they won’t listen and there’s no point in you getting dragged down in their ship from hanging on the coattails.

Billyo66

Make sure that you don't end up as skivvy carer for these men when your parents are gone.

Your parents may well leave the house to them as they have so enabled them this far.

Make your plans to not be around for caring duties if your parents need it.

You would very quickly end up doing it for the whole house.

Protect yourself and your future.

Airyfairy12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423650#Comment_122423650

We were raised very differently, they were given allot of financial support, had their college paid for where as I wasnt and when I had money I was kind of expected to hand allot of it up where as my brothers wearnt, I was allot more controlled than they were and would have been verbally and emotionally abused at home, the brothers are like golden boys, could do nothing wrong even when they did allot very wrong. I moved out of home for a while but house and rent costs drove me back to my parents. I did allot of work on myself, I set healthy boundaries with my parents and have a good relationship with them now, im not abusive but take no crap, I keep them very seperate from my personal life, I have allot of friends now, most of which live at home, in social housing or live with a partner.

Two of the brothers have huge resentment towards my parents but wont change their circumstances, the youngest one is like a baby and wants everything done for him even though he's clearly depressed.

Cyrus

This kind of thing is a lot more common than youd think, i know of 3 brothers who sound pretty similar albeit slightly higher functioning with jobs but all in their 40s and living at home reliant on their mother for everything, as others have said not much you can do to fix it despite how frustrating and upsetting it is, sorry for your troubles!

tabby aspreme

OP, you say your mother tried to control you but you resisted and got an education and your independence, did your brothers give in to her controlling nature and let her make decisions for them

Airyfairy12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423625#Comment_122423625

My parents are constantly giving out about it, theyre afraid to say anything to the brothers because of their individual reactions..

Theres no hope asking them to leave as theres no where for them to go, they cant afford housing.

LilacNails

Have u discussed things with your parents, or all of ye together?

taxAHcruel

It is hard to say - without knowing a hell of a lot more about them - what kind of intervention would work with them. If any.

And if anything works with one of them - you can probably assume safely enough the same thing will not work with the other two. Interventions very often fail and where they do actually succeed they are very individual and the same intervention won't work on the next person. Even if you think the people in question are very similar.

The problem with interventions - like with an alcoholic for example - is at some level the target has to want it. If they do not then nothing will likely help. Maybe even make it worse!

With alcoholics there is an approach which I think is called the Johnson method. Which I think involves all the people affected by the alcoholics' behaviour come together as a unit and tell the problem drinker how they are affected and basically that they are now going to cease ALL enabling behaviours that support the alcoholic in their alcoholism. But retaining behaviours that do not. For example, rescuing the alcoholic on a night out if they need a lift home is now never going to happen. Making the alcoholic lunch while they get ready to go out for a job interview is fine. And so on.

A similar approach might work in your situation. Certainly no more taking this grown up baby to McDonald's for a start. You want them to act like adults, then performing actions that infantilise them like that is going to do the exact opposite.

The parents should consider telling them it is time to leave the home for a second. But if they refuse to go THAT far then it is still their home, so they can refuse to have certain people or things in it. So they can ban Games Machines, friends visiting, or whatever else is enabling this layabout behaviour. In one case I am personally aware of the parents did not kick the kid entirely out of the house. They still had a place to dinner, sleep and breakfast. But from 8am until 7pm they were not welcome in the house.

On another note, resilience is a funny one. It is like a muscle. You can look at two people and think they are not resilient, in the same way you can look at two layabouts and think they are physically weak. But if you train the latter two people in a gym for 8 months, one comes out strong and the other still weak. You realise that they were both weak because they were never tested. Only after they stepped up to try did you figure out which one was physically/genetically a weak person and which not.

Resilience can be the same. There is a saying "The worst thing that has ever happened to you - is the worst thing that has ever happened to you". Basically meaning if your resilience has never been tested as you live a life of protracted comfort - then someone unfriending you on facebook might bring your entire world crashing down. It is literally the worst thing that has ever happened to you.

Assuming the adult babies do not have actual issues of medical depression (which I can't know either way) then you probably will not know how resilient they are (or are not) until they step up and have to actually be so. Unfortunately, like the intervention thing above there is no easy way to do this or force it on them. Short of them being kicked out of the home and forced to go about their life the hard way.

Another issue is they might actually be living their best lives. It hurts you to see them laying about not getting after it. It would hurt me too. But what if this is actually what they want from their lives? Read the posts on this forum from Potential Monke for example. When he described the life he lives now (Basically a MGTOW gamer and hermit smoking drugs) I was initially sad for him. But the more I read his posts the more I am convinced this might actually be what constitutes a happy life for him. I was sad because I was viewing his life through mine not his own.

You and I can not judge him or your brothers by our own standards and goals and targets. By trying to get them into a job and off the games, you may be forcing on them a life they simply do not want. So be cognizant of that as you proceed. Your role in all this therefore COULD be as simple as loving them as they are and accepting them for it. Which you can do without enabling it too.

In my life I was moved personally, or by others, to intervene in the lives of a small number of others. And I did so - but only as I knew them really well and learned as much as I could before I worked out how to intervene. In the majority of cases though I would not intervene and all you can do is represent "the path" as best you can yourself. Quietly, without bragging or shoving it in their faces. But actively and consistently with humility and magnanimity mixed with pride and enjoyment and happiness. And hope that they reach a point where they are looking at you thinking "I want that". At which point they will either better themselves or reach out and ask you for help/advice.

All that said - it does sound like with at least one of them a few Jokko Willink podcasts or books might not go astray. Especially the "its all everyones fault but my own" guy. Some "extreme ownership" would not go astray with that one I suspect. Maybe get him a subscription to the Jokko Underground podcast for his next birthday or something :-) It's cheap and it's like a man's man agony aunt question and answer podcast with a lot of quality stuff in it.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423563#Comment_122423563

To be honest the burden of this situation on other people is rarely discussed and there should be no shame in discussing it and even calling them a pain in the hole, I've been through it with friends.

Airyfairy12

Thanks everyone, I want the best for everyone in involved, I dont want to sound uncaring, ive no issues with them not having a job if they dont want one thats fine but its their depressed states while doing absolutely nothing to improve their situations. The relying on other people while doing absolutely nothing to stand on their own two feet, on a bare minimum level. I do live at home too, its not ideal but house costs and rent are insane, theres no where I could afford to live, I really think the housing situation has a large play in this, its like my brothers are in a state of arrested development because autonomy and living independantly is such a pipe dream, for all of us! Ive always been allot more independent, our mum used to really try and control me, didnt like me being so independent but I did whatever I had to do to get work, paid for own education, bought my own car and paid for all my driving lessons. I live at home but buy my own food, cook my own meals, wash my own clothes, keep all my things in my bedroom, give money towards bills, tbh im looking at emigrating because I cant see a future here the only thing stopping me is my boyfriend who also lives with his parents, he wont emigrate, he's tied to here because of family reasons.

Its just really sad to see my family struggle individually and as a group, my parents want their retirement, its a small house we live in and my mother is responsible for all the financial load and washing ect. Its not fair.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361283/lack-of-resilience-in-brothers

Brother 1 has a mental illness and needs help and 2 and 3 have undiagnosed issues

Tombo2001

Not sure what the answer is here pal, maybe its not about 'fixing them' and more about you accepting that things are the way they are, that you cant control it, and not letting it become an overbearing part of your life.

Sounds like underlying this that a big concern is for your parents and how they are to spend their twilight years.

Easy to suggest 'tough love' here but hard to push through with that when someone has attempted suicide.

I would distinguish though between someone who has no drive, no motivation etc on the one hand, and someone who is verbally abusive and financially exploitative on the other. There is a line…..

Also, specifically tough for your mother being in a house with four men, three of whom are as you described.

OP you didnt mention if you live at home.

Paterson Jerins

I do feel bad for your parents. Very loving by the sound of it. Its harsh to say, but the parents have made their beds with these three. And it's gonna be very hard for them to leave the nest and become functioning adults.

It's not entirely your parents fault but enabling this behaviour by men/middle aged men is a big part of the whole problem. Mcdonalds wtf!

You mention computer games. How do these men afford the games and consoles? They can be very expensive.

Have any of these men ever lived alone, or even paid bills?

Washing clothes? But they are not working and fully grown physically healthy men, they should be doing the chores.

You say the 40yo is verbally abusive. Im guessing this is to your parents? They are obviously nearing their 70s. Probably retired or soon to be. This is insane. Sleeping all day and gaming, and never worked. Do the guards need to be involved? What are these violent outbursts? Are these 3 violent with each other?

Glenomra

I have seen similar circumstances in a number of families over the years. In all the cases I have seen there was a pattern of 'eccentricity ' evident in the parents" families. Genetics in those instances imo.

Hannibal_Smith

Its not about them not being resilient, it sounds like they need professional help. Do you live at home too? At the end of the day they are responsible for their own lives, so if they won't accept your help all you can do is live your own life and if they ask for help and you can give it then step in. They have their parents there with them.

The brother who attempted suicide - that is serious as in you cant just change a mind set when things go too far. And to be putting himself out there looking for work within six months after such a serious event - he is more resilient than you think.

scottser

deleted

Airyfairy12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423000#Comment_122423000

Thanks, ive tried, many times, one responds with grunts, the other rants about how everyone is horrible and he's a victim, he's incredibly abusive verbally and just projects onto everyone else.

NiceFella

It sounds like they have deep emotional issues. Do they have trouble expressing themselves? If so they could probably find life overwhelming because they ultimately don't have an outlet in this regard. It can be hard to be normal if you have heavy repressed feelings stuck inside. And Life is so full of distractions nowadays that we can forget how we feel day in day out.

Have you ever tried to connect with them on things that they like. Just a chat were you shoot the breeze were you allow them space to talk about whatever. Just listening to people can be among the greatest things you could actually do for them. Encouragement also.