It was Patrick Mullen you saw ,Adrian's brother, broken wrist I believe. You lost me at point 2 when you wrote "from a bit I've heard" Can I ask from whom? Tittle tattle is just that. Not worth repeating.
I wouldn't let me near a team, it's easy from the sidelines.
Quick Puck outs are being taken before the umpire even waves a white flag or waves it wide, that isnt right, it isn't in the rules and just another example of clever coaching essentially being cheating. Refs havent blown for puckout to be taken but are too scared to "ruin the spectacle", so they nearly always let it off.
Look also at goalies, 3, 4, 5 yards outside their permitted maximum by the time they hit long puckouts. Never ever pulled up.
How can a game where 46 shots at goal didnt register a score be termed the greatest ever standard?
if not blowing the whistle for frees makes an excellent ref then he was the best ever :)
Hard to argue with any of that. Are you free yourself to go in there
Great job that teaching.
I would disagree with you Village87 about Deegan, Mossy, Richie Reid and even Tommy Walsh. I think Tommy Walsh is symptomatic of the team and he just shows it more obviously when things are going wrong. I think this all comes back to the coaching and choices made on selection. I actually think we have some great hurlers and we have a good few very good to good hurlers. Not every player has to be Henry, TJ or JJ and if you look back honestly at our great team lots were good to very good players but we had a disproportionate amount of great hurlers mixed in. Sometimes you need a bit of grit and a mulocker, the great Tipp team we faced in the teens, were often accused of having too many good hurlers and not enough warriors.
Deegan could be hugely effective I believe on the half forward line. Mossy actually played the best hurling I ever saw him play as a centre back when he was younger, I'd try him at wing back again or just play better ball into him as a forward. Richie is probably at the end of his time with Kilkenny but if he's kept on I would try him at midfield where his vision could be lethal. I think we have better backs coming through than Tommy Walsh but if he was playing in a system where they all knew their roles and cover was there he's actually very competent. Tommy usually starts out very well but he's the flag for me that the opposition have changed their style and it's working. He begins to flounder and panic because I think he can see what's coming. If we were better coached I'd still be open too Tommy playing and I'd back him to play much better.
Wally, Fogarty, Buckley, and in fact both Reids, I think should all walk away this year and 3 or 4 of them they should have gone last winter. I thank them for their commitment and all they have sacrificed, the huge joy they brought us all over the years, particularly in the early days of their careers when I'm sure it looked to them like they'd never stop winning. There are a few more that have been around the panel for a lot of years now that haven't been getting a run that should go too. It needs a huge refresh and yes it might mean we're a bit less competitive in the short term and next year and the year after might not be great but at least the younger lads will get chances and we might get a team together before Mullen, Cody et al. are getting too old to win. A rebuild is needed and it could happen faster than many might think with the right structure and coaching in place.
The game Sunday was the highest standard i have ever seen when it comes to hurling. The quick puck outs have transformed the game and the ball is in play much longer as a result. How long was wasted before the quick puck outs came in pucking out the ball. Frees are the problem but the referee was excellent Sunday. The mass defences are a thing of the past due to the short game and scoring from distance, it was great to see 2 teams play like they did Sunday, the striking, the physicality, the fielding, the pace, the tactics, the short game. It was all on display Sunday.
I heard on OTB podcast that there were 102 shots at goal in Cork v Limerick match.
That is staggerring, but I wonder does it diminish the match in terms of quality.
Can a match that sees players get 102 shots away in 70 mins be termed a classic?
And does it feed into something I have long had a fear on, that the game has been made too easy, rules overlooked, essentially dumbed down to provide high scoring spectacles?
That is a great post, especially point 4.
I disagree Charlie 69, we do not have the players, we struggled to beat any team in Leinster round robin with the exception of Antrim. How would Cork, Clare or Limerick do against Carlow ?? Players like Deegan, Mossy, Richie Reid, Tommy Walsh are good honest hurlers, but that's about it, TJ is 38 in 2025 and will more than likely continue, we have no impact off the bench and i nearly got sick when i seen Fogarty come on, i agree with the posts criticising management, cannot believe we have not found 1 good sub. Eoin Cody is not going to be the top top intercounty forward we were praying for unfortunately, a very good forward but not a Henry, TJ, Eddie, Gillane, Callinan etc.
Management have to find 4/5 new players next year.
That decision would have decided long before last Sunday, strong rumours he's running in the next general election.
Himself and Conor Browne are in Australia, Leahy did his ACL hurling over there.
Great post as usual tbiggertycome, agree with all of that. I’ve been saying it for a long time on here, we have the players here in Kilkenny right now to be successful, some posters saying we don’t have the hurlers or we don’t have enough pace etc…. I don’t believe it for a second, our problem is desperately poor coaching and it has been for a long time.
That can make your first touch look poor because you’re having to think about your next move instead of it being automatic or can make you look like a slow team because you’re always reactive instead of proactive.
Brian Cody’s teams in later years overachieved in a way despite poor coaching because he had an incredible ability to motivate players and get every last ounce of effort out of them. Hard work is definitely a pre requisite for success but it alone will only take you so far in the modern game.
I know for a fact that the Tipp minors for example had prepared in advance for how they would set up if they lost a man, how they would set up if the opposition lost a man etc.
I said it in an earlier post, our players have shown they play with better method but it has to be drummed into them to trust it and persist with it under pressure and then as you say have a plan B if that’s not working out.
It’s so frustrating to watch us miss out on two underage titles this year and our seniors losing games they should be winning because of poor coaching and preparation.
Totally agree with everything you say. I have said the current management team seem to be a poor mans Cody.
As you said nothing has really changed. Young players brought in and discarded like a deck of cards if they make the slightest mistake. We need to have more patience and give these players a good chance. Young players need to have confidence that they will be given a fair chance.
Management need to have a long hard look in the mirror as I blame them for this defeat. No disrepect to Fogarty and Walsh but i dont think any KK supporter thought on Sat that they would change the direction of that game. I honestly said to myself thats game over. Clare must have being delighted to see the 2 of them come on as they knew exactly what KK were going to do. If he had sprung 2 young players off the bench they probably would have to second guess.
The county board needs a massive shake up and someone to come in and drive change. I feel it will turn into a long famine if there is no change there.
Lyng has a year left on his contract and IMO he will have to swing massive changes if he wants to stay longer. He will need to end careers if they decide not to themselves.
Rumour has it he'll be involved with the Adare Ryder Cup project going forward. May even step away from the Limerick job.
Where was Richie Leahy this year? Is he injured or just not involved any more?
absolutely agree on everything you said.
Nail on the head
Unfortunately I was away and missed the minor in the park and could only get to watch the semi final in town when I got back. It was a really bad week for the county and incredibly frustrating as both teams could have won. Fair dues to Clare and even more so Cork on getting to the finals and for Tipp for digging it out when down to 13 men. I've read all the comments on here since I got back and there as been much guessing and wondering what went wrong and I'll mainly focus on the senior game.
1.Were lads injured?
2. Are we fit enough?
3. Why do we revert to type when under pressure?
4. Kind of related to the above, are we tactically savvy enough?
5. We kept introducing the same old players with no youth or newness.
1 We all know Donnelly was injured in the Wexford game and he hasn't been right since but played ok on Saturday. I saw Adrian Mullen (looked like him anyway) with a cast on his left wrist yesterday, perhaps he picked it up in the game but he was definitely sub par for most of the first half and should have been replaced earlier. This would seem to be an error on the managements part and something we still don't seem to have learned from since 2010.
2 I think we are fit enough and I think our inability to play well for 70 minutes is not a physical thing. I do think we left it too long to make changes. The management seem to have no faith in their panel otherwise they would make changes earlier. From a bit I've heard the communication is very poor to non-existent a lot of the time. I had hoped we'd moved on from that BS after Cody but these guys all seemed to learned this and think it's an effective approach to man management. If you look at our matches against Limerick particularly in 2022 but even last year we were as fit, we lost those games in other ways which I will address next.
3 & 4 I think the reason we revert to type (ie longball from the fullback line) is that the whole of Kilkenny hurling or huge parts of it's coaching are infected with Cody's mantras and style at both intercounty and club, players/coaches and managers who looked up to him with good reason. Unfortunately there seems to be no leadership at the top of the pile from the County board through to team managements to lead a change in this. There is no charismatic leader there that lads would run through a brick wall for or that people want to follow. There is very little passion at all levels down through our county set up all the way to the fans hence the lower numbers I believe. So before a match we devise a smart way of playing an opposition and by an large it works well and we burst out into a lead. The opposition usually see what we're doing and devise a counter strategy to negate our good work and this is when we fall apart. We seem to have coached them to play one certain way and when that stops working our lads seem to panic and revert to what they and their coaches have known all their lives lump it long and get it out of my area so it's not my problem. We play as individuals and the whole thing falls apart we rely on individual brilliance to keep us in games and to withstand the come backs. I believe this makes it look like we're not fit enough as we're chasing shadows as we've lost our shape and purpose. Now that can happen any team on a day but what you need then is leaders on the sideline and field to pull things back together, make a few changes to allow us to counteract the changes the opposition made to deal with our first half dominance. I know for a fact that Corks coach, teaches at least 4 different setups of play to counteract what an opposition might do or change too. All the players are trained in these different styles/tactics so they can be implemented as and when needed depending on what an opposition team does or how they want to exploit them. If they bring back a sweeper how do you play? Well you know because you have practiced it. What if they flood the middle third and play one up front. Ok you might not have faced exactly that but you've seen something similar in practice so ye try that option and the sideline might make a few tweeks. It seems to me that KK go out with our setup and gameplan right most days it works well until the opposition counter it and then we're all at sea.
5 I had hoped this management team would be different but in reality they are a pale imitation of Cody. They have tried somethings but they've been far to conservative. In fact even more conservative I would suggest on player selection than Cody would have been the last few years. Young players get half a league game to make an impression and are dropped to the curb others impress all league and then are dropped to obscurity. I'm deliberately referring to the management team and not just Derek as I believe they're all culpable. Lots of players brought into the setup but very few given a real chance. For instance I would have loved to seen a J Molloy or a N Rowe given the league and championship at corner back. I would have persisted with Daragh Corcoran FB and tried H Lawlor CB. It seems like the management decided these lads just can't do it and there's no point even trying them for any length of time. Corcoran and S Murphy got games but they were messed around by filling gaps all over and never got a chance in one spot then seemingly punished for not performing when starters stayed in position and held their place.
I could go on about the county board and I will at some stage but we will see no change at county board level until our treasurer and a many of the other long term residence who have been on the circuit, go. They won't go of their own accord and unless we have a Duignan style figure to lead a campaign to replace them all it won't happen. We saw what Duignan brought to Offaly, a new vigour, ideas and enthusiasm to the setup. I fear we could be in for another 10+ years of mediocrity. An All Ireland Semi Final is kind of the minimum a KK manager should be achieving with the current health of Leinster hurling and the players we have.
We need some innovative coaching and passion. We don't have to follow what Cork or Limerick do or play like them. We have to give our players the tools to be able to recognise and counteract styles of play with our own. We don't have to proscribe every movement far from it but we need to know where to be when we're defending and how get around the opposition defence when attacking using our own styles. The players have to be comfortable with that and the more clubs do to start playing in different ways the more the players are exposed to it and are more comfortable playing in different setups.
Derek Mc grath also took a career break.
Did jack oConner not take a carrer break from teaching during one of his tenures with Kerry.
maybe its an age thing, would much prefer to see limerick winning anything than cork or tipp
Think everyone was delighted to see Cork win bar Limerick people, it was a super performance and to beat them twice in one year was some achievement. Fair play to Pat Ryan and the players, particularly with all the guff coming out of Limerick after the first game, videoing Corks celebrations etc and what Limerick weren't going to do to ye if ye met again. Savage display by Cork..
I'll still be roaring the banner on in the final though!
Could he be running for election maybe?
Never thought of that! I'm sure JP would pass a hat around the dressing room for him.
Cody was 61 and had been teaching for 41 years and had a nice pension to look forward to.
What's poor Kiely going to live on with no salary? 😳
I saw that. It shows their intent alright but doesn't guarantee anything.
Funnily enough, Cody retired from work in 2015...I know KK were on a different trajectory then to where Limerick are now in fairness.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41433235.html
Limerick have cleary decided they intend upping the ante even further.
nothing to do again so I looked up the size of a hurling pitch. So it s nearly 4 acres s that would give us about 7 pitches, plus the existing two pitches. “Now you’re talking “ I hope this is reality. I presume there will be an announcement made in the near future so we can capitalise on it and drive forward . Just on another thing about the county board how many patrons did they lose by insisting on on line ticket sales, I personally know a few that couldn’t hack it and would not go again. Lost forever and these would have been ardent supporters, some people might brush this off and tell you that this is the future but it is not easy on people and they should have been helped and brought along slowly. We have two former bank managers on the board and still there is no swipe card facilities. So they are only futuristic when it suits.
just referring to dropping ball’s comments I totally agree on forgetting about the league . I would just throw caution to the wind next year try as many players in the Walsh cup next year bring them on keep as many going for the league and getting them to fight tooth and nail to retain our league status and see how they will perform under pressure. Good to hear about Dunmore but as someone said I hope big Phil will be handling the project I just couldn’t trust those clowns in the county board, no foresight, no vision , no ambition and would want to keep some money for a rainy day. And build a dome a focal point for the whole Leinster area. WHY NOT?
ah, Kilkenny football manager, took me a while
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