The TMO is doign what during this period?
In Pearce's defence, you could hear Whitehouse over the comms saying it was "just a collision" or something similar, and that's how the TMO system is supposed to work.
Quite how Whitehouse came to that conclusion is unclear given it was very obvious what Snyman was up to, but he did review it.
Serious questions need to be asked about the role of the TMO. They seem to want to get involved in some situation when they shouldn't, when they should they want to ignore.
The Boks have been like that for years, look at the reaction after the England game when Curry mentioned to the ref what he thought was said, not to the press or anyone. To the ref on the pitch and it was caught on ref mic
The abuse he got and still gets today is a joke, plus the excuse the Boks made up, nobody but the Boks believe that horse sh*t.
Eben and DDA made fools out of themselves before the games, now Bongi. From an Ireland point of view, ignore the clowns. One more game and they will be off making fools of themselves about another team
In general I'm finding them to be incredibly distasteful
I think it all comes from the top tbh, but they are a particularly classless bunch of men.
The ref was very quick to brush that off as a legal tackle and bizarrely wanted to move the game on without checking it properly. Perhaps in that case the Irish captain should be extremely brief and just comment that it’s a late hit that needs review, and the player came from an offside position so please review that too. Then walk away and don’t engage in a discussion with a back and forth with a stressed ref. They had about 5 minutes to review the incident so they should have got it right, late hit on a player not in possession resulting in severe injury, red card, and even if not capable of getting that right if he came from an offside position, penalty at least. The ref and TMO completely bottled it and showed they are totally inept at this level.
Finding the narrative around this series to be getting worse and worse. Feels like we've been brought down to their level too, after weeks of badgering from the Boks, a few questionable refereeing decisions has blown the whole thing up.
The main issue was around the Casey incident, when from what everyone has said DOris was trying to say he was offside. The ref ignored it, the TMO who could pour over replays for minutes delaying the game when it suits couldn't see this???
The ref was acting like a child, if they can't communicate with players like adults they shouldn't be given top end international games.
It wasn't a potential knock on in the lineout, a knock on was called. The point is that it was clearly deliberate.
Though I agree it's not the kind of thing they are going to change their mind on, but I can understand why Doris would want to bring it up. If the ref is telling you to go away on your first interaction with him as captain then it's just a lost cause though.
Another thing on the refs, it seems to be an issue with English ref's
Leinster and Ireland because of the number of games seem to have a lot of English refs in Internationals and then at club games with Leinster playing the top French teams into the big games in Europe, also Munster etc playing French sides so will get English refs
Is it a case of English refs constantly having Irish players in their ears and of course they all talk, so maybe we are getting a bad name?
For all the abuse Rassie gave the refs, he has hired a ref who seemed to be well liked on the circuit and during the last WC his players, as most people noted, seem to stay out of the ref ways and not question decisions at all. Kolisi is a huge name in rugby and the refs wont talk down to him either
A captain isn’t going to get the ref to reverse a decision like a ruck penalty unless there is something dangerous missed off the ball, and I don’t think refs are inclined to go looking at potential knock ons such as the Du Toit lineout knock on unless there is an opportunity due to an immediate break in play or when a try has been scored.
Captains have to be smart about raising issues; there are issues where a simple comment is appropriate when pointing something out, it won’t change that decision but may affect the next decision by making the ref more aware to watch for it, and there are times when a TMO review could be requested due to foul play that was missed or if a try was scored. Unfortunately refs are under pressure to keep proceedings moving so if a TMO says something refs are usually quick to run with it and try to restart the play asap, it would be unusual for a ref to ask the TMO to review something again for example the disallowed try to check if the TMO missed the neck roll. I’d also sympathise with the TMO when camera angles aren’t clear, like the Doris try grounding or the foot in touch when Lowe kept the ball in and led to them getting a try.
Whoever captains Ireland needs to get better at knowing what to raise and how to raise issues without getting dragged into discussions as the ref will not be interested in players continuously distracting them with stuff the ref will not do anything about.
He also said he was training in Ben Whtehouse, he was a good ref but seemingly a bad teacher :-) Nigel had his own traits as BOD said before, he liked a close game, high scoring and hated a team trying to close out a game. As BOD tried to tell Ireladn in the famous game that never happened against NZ
Not really, his point was that Sexton and Paulie had the presence that refs would listen to them. It seems like the Irish player at the moment are been told to shut up. This is a few times now over the last few months this has happened and not just to Doris.
Sexton was a good communicator, the refs would listen to him and he got his point across. People didn't like his style of communication but then again some people would complain about Sexton if he helped an old person across the road.
Paulie was just as forceful at times, BOD never had to be because he was BOD.
If a ref turns arounds and scolds the captain like a child well then I thin the captain has the right to put the ref straight. The captain has to have the ability to talk to the ref, end of. If the ref can't have the ability to discuss with the captain incidents then IRFU need to raise huge concerns with the communication ability of these refs/
I do agree that Ireland players have got a little mouthy and I seen it in the last warm up game when Barnes shut them down, I thin the rest of the team need to keep it down and leave it to the captain to talk.
A good point I heard yesterday, can't remember whic podcast, was the suggestion that Doris was talking too much before been made captain, then when he was captain the ref had enough. SO maybe they need to look at having a player as captain who is only playing half the game going forward, is this the right direction? i know others do it like SA but it doesn't seem to work for Ireland at the moment
They will have a meeting with the officials before the match, it's standard enough.
That's what Joel jutge in world rugby is for. He's elite men's officials manager or something like that. Wouldn't be a meeting with any refs directly
I was always a fan of Nigel Owens…even when we lost with him at the helm. Thought he was fair enough.
I wouldn't sayany of them have experience of being public school children!
I'm not sure if this is allowed but to get on the "right side" of the officials is it possible for the Ireland management to request a meeting with them just to ask what did we do wrong in terms of our approach to them on the field?
A kind of yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir. And just to show we want to engage with them and improve how we deal with them.
I think @CMcsporty point is 100% correct. The players are just public school children, they are the headmaster! 😁
At least Doris hasn't gone crying to the press about being disrespected by the ref and telling them to watch a cobbled together video edit of the game, I suppose.
All the talk about the scrum from last weekends game centres around the South Africa penalty try. Like, it was an impressive bit of power but doesn't reflect the overall picture of the game.
Ireland had the match of the Bok scrum for 60 minutes and it wasn't until the subs came in that the tide turned. I thought we were unlucky to not get a few penalties out of them as well.
No I wouldn't say so, probably applicable for most fanbases in most sports though. Reffings a tough gig
Sounds pretty stupid from Jackman if he did say that to be honest. Sexton was not a good communicator with refs and his behaviour is not something to emulate.
Getting on the wrong side of refs happens, for whatever reason. I would suspect Pearce might get marked down for his communication with Doris as I think it was completely unfair, but there is nothing much you can do about it at the time.
Had there ever been a ref that Irish fans were happy with at the time of the announcement and also at the end of the game when we lost?
Pearse is touch judge this weekend as well, which doesn't bode well.
Was it Jackman who was saying the last day maybe we are the nice Irishmen an ref thinks they can talk to players like that
Maybe a bit of Sexton fire might get some respect, Sexton for all the complaints people had about his would never allow a ref to speak to him like that and would get his point over
The "I know you hate me but you have to talk to me"(or something like that) comment
The Boks have been on a three year campaign to intimidate refs as much as they can, maybe it's finally paying off.
I think that despite the moronic posters at the match with Rassies in your head it actually really bothers the Saffers that they are in fact not only not in the Irish teams head but actually the Irish team is living in theirs rent free, all the noise is coming from one side whilst the other doesn’t get involved.
If it is sometimes the case that Ireland captains & Refs don't have an excellent relationship then it's not likely to get any easier this weekend ;
South Africa v IrelandReferee: Karl Dickson (RFU) ARs: Luke Pearce (Eng) Angus Gardner (RA) & Craig Evans (WRU) TMO: Ian Tempest (RFU)
And Karl Dickson definitely has a view on the Irish scrum.
So whatever issues there are with English referees it’s clear that talking to them doesn’t work.
Solution: stop talking to them like normal people.
Start talking to them like your back in school.
‘Sir, May I ask a question please?’
They love that stuff and it’s guaranteed to at least get a better response.
And sadly Dickson is an even bigger homer than Pearce so if he's hearing this we are f**ked, especially after watching his appalling refereeing of the Ireland v France game in February.
The Boks are at it again now with Bongi claiming Ireland were trying to play "tricks" in the scrum. The poor South Africans only want a fair scrum i.e calls to go their way
Maybe the issue isn't Doris but other and too many Irish players are in the refs ear too often.
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