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Child Item

Living or Guest

AllForIt

A tenant rents a 2 bedroom apartment. They have 2 children who stay overnight at the apt every weekend. Randomly this can be Fri to Sun, Thursday to Monday, variations of that, the odd time the whole week, consistently throughout the whole year.

Would those kids be classified as living in the apartment or merely guests of the tenant?

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SupaCat95

I am guessing guests. Its not their main residence as they are just visiting.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058358007/living-or-guest

Classified by who? The state, their school, the landlord? Might need to clarify your reasons in order to get a useful answer

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328714#Comment_122328714

The Landlord.

dennyk

Children can't be party to a tenancy agreement and so can't request to be added to a tenancy even if they are licensees, so from the landlord's perspective it is immaterial. Really the only concern for the landlord would be whether their occupation of the property would make the property overcrowded under the definition in the Housing Act 1966.

Edit: If the landlord's notion is that the children's part-time residence there would violate some clause in the tenancy agreement prohibiting taking in licensees and allow them to terminate the tenancy on that basis, they'd do well to read up on the Equal Status Acts, particularly the bits about discrimination on the basis of family status, because that isn't going to fly with the RTB or the WRC.

Call me Al

It's not their home if it's really only weekends.

I'd expect that their school has them registered at their home address, also Dept of Social Welfare has them at the home address.

I can't see how a landlord can legitimately claim they are residents.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329421#Comment_122329421

Most people would probably describe them as living there part of the time. If the kids were at boarding school during the week and back at weekends. There is no question that they live there, right.

But "classify" is a strange way to describe it. I don't think landlords should be concerned with classifying the domestic arrangements of their tenants. They rent a two bed apartment, the whole apartment, it's theirs to use as they need.

It's unlikely any sort of occupancy clause from the landlord is enforceable. Unless the tenants specifically offered terms for reduced rent.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329854#Comment_122329854

Most leases say that you can have short term guests, but cannot move anyone in as a resident without the landlords permission.

If I rent a 2 bed to two people, expect there to be two people living there, not four.

AllForIt

I'm sorry to have been vague as to why I'm asking but I see that may have caused some confusion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330769#Comment_122330769

If I rent a 2 bed to two people, expect there to be two people living there, not four.

This is the problem. The tenant did not inform the landland that his kids would be present on average 40% of the week. There is a soundproofing problem between apts for which there are no minimum standards set, I've learned. I live below them and have to endure endless noise from 8am to bedtime every day they are present. They never go out for more than an hour, they have no garden access, it's totally unsuitable for very young kids imo. The noise is intolerable, I will have to move out if the issue cannot be resolved.

The landlord was well aware of the soundproofing problem before he let the flat above me. The previous one person tenant, where every footstep was a thud, took a bit of getting used to but I did, sorta. The Landlord would never have let it to a young family of 3 knowing how much noise they would create in comparision to a single person but that is effectivley what has happened. As far as I'm concerned they do live in the apartment and the noise I have to endure is not some trivial 'temporary' thing as if they were guests visiting for a few hours.

Now both my Landlord and I have a big problem. I'm pestering him to solve it but I think he won't be able to, unless he can claim the kids are living in the apartment which goes against what he understood would be the case, i.e. the tenant is in the wrong.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122332730#Comment_122332730

You may think the LL has a problem, he doesn’t. Have you discussed soundproofing with your own landlord?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330769#Comment_122330769

Yeah but, as already pointed out, a tenant's minor children are never named on the lease, but there is no practice of tenants seeking the landlord's permission to have their children live with them. Nor, if they are blessed with further offspring, do tenants contact the landlord to seek approval to bring in an additional resident.

In short: good luck trying to get any court or tribunal to accept that a term of this kind applies, or can be applied, to the tenant's minor children. The right to have your minor children live with you comes as standard.

The Equal Status Act has already been mentioned. In general, it forbids discrimination on the grounds of family status. A carve-out allows you to discriminate if you are providing accommodation in your own home, but if you are renting out a self-contained flat you can't do that on terms that disadvantage tenants with children.

As Dav10 point out, the problem here is not the children; it's the lack of adequate soundproofing. AllForIt is either unduly sensitive, or (more likely) is living in a substandard building. I get the impression that the same landlord is renting out both flats — one to AllForIt and the one above to the tenant whose children live there part-time. This is very much the landlord's problem, but it's not a problem he can solve by telling the upstairs tenant that they can't have their children living there, any more than he can solve it by evicting AllForIt and letting to a new tenant who is aware of the problem and takes it on. The proper solution is the provision of better soundproofing.

AllForIt

It's a town house converted to two apts. The house is generally of good standard and in a very nice area too. The problem is there are no minimum standards set for soundproofing. Since I was asked, yes I discussed it with the landlord long ago where he said it would cost a lot to 'fix'.

The top floor apt was renovated a little when there was a tenant changeover. The floor boards were ripped up where I could see my ceiling, a two foot gap and the floorboards. Unfortunately the floorboards seem to be of very low quality, they vibrate. This is not my area but I think that is a major cause of the problem. I think the sound is being amplified down into my apartment because of this so what I hear is louder than what they hear I dunno like an echo chamber.

I agree with @Peregrinus assessment, the solution is to fix the noise problem. But he had a chance to do it earlier when it was vacant but he didn't. So when I move out that's a problem for him and he'll have the same problem with the next tenant unless their deaf. Would suit one deaf person.