Fair play lads. Vouge and Spencer will have serious competition for baby related content.
Mothers and fathers bring separate important skills to the parenting table. Yes I do think that parenting a male needs input from a ideally a father or another male.
Being honest I wouldnt have a problem with 2 gay women raising a child. Its more natural imo. I do believe though that these children should know who their father is.
I do have a problem with 2 men however - its going against nature. Handing over a newborn to 2 men is just not right. The love of a mother has for her child is special and nothing will convince me otherwise. I sincerely do hope that Brian and Artur parent these girls well and we dont have 2 messed up girls in the future. Best wishes to their family.
Ive given my opinion and thats the last Im going to say here. There is no point going over and back.
I'd be curious to know what aspect of anything I said is "woke". Though it's not a word I tend to understand or use. Seems to mean much different things today than it did when it was originally coined. But yeah I do often get called extreme right, or extreme left, or some other label when I express opinions. Though how I can be all of these things at the same time - I have never worked out. I mean I was called a right wing extremist once solely because I mentioned I teach my kids how to operate and shoot rifles since they were around 8/9. Is that right wing? Beats me. Pro homosexual marriage (left? woke?) against transgenders going to the wrong places in things like sports (right? Fasscist?). Seems no one knows what I am :)
I fear people just throw out a label because they can not actually reply to anything you actually said. "I can't answer that so I will just say woke. That'll show them how with it and clued in I am!" :) It's hilarious really. Or pathetic. Or both. I dunno.
Just curious, similar near caricature of Wokeness
Remember the Sacha Baron Cohen series where he played a number of different characters and one guy pretended to give birth in order to "experience female suffering" ?
You remind me of the character
Many men don't. Despite being very sexual and sexually active I have never had either a wet dream OR erections out of context. Many men don't. Some women don't have periods either - shock horror. Rare of course. But they exist.
While I might seem derisive about it I have to admit I am genuinely baffled AND intrigued by this "if you haven't done/experienced it you can not help/explain it" concept you have. Do you apply this to everything in life? Or just reproductive topics? Do you genuinely believe the mechanics of female toilet products is beyond the mind of men? Or are you being tongue in cheek and having a laugh?
Are you sure? It's the norm here too. I already had a conversation about color in the pad for example. Not to turn this thread into an off topic biology lesson but some girls have a flow so slow that blood does it's usual thing of clotting and congealing. Perfectly normal conversation "Dad just wondering is it meant to be sometimes weirdly totally brown" to which I explained exactly what I just said above. Different colors. Meanings of different colors. What to worry about. What not to worry about. And much more.
Shock horror. Men can do this. I am genuinely baffled as to why you are so sure it's such an out there concept. Are men so helpless in your experience? :) This seems to be more a comment on the men in YOUR life than men in general I would suggest.
But that said - no one needs it to be the "norm" do they? So why even bring that up that it is not the norm? Two male parents is not the norm either. The question is IN that situation can a man step up and fill these roles you are assigning to the mother. Answer: Yes. They can. Just as well as any woman.
No one said it is the "norm". We are saying that WHEN it happens this way it appears not to be any better or worse than the "norm". What has "norm" got to do with anything really?
Ah you are not ignoring all my posts then just some of them. That's good.
Not sure to what you refer to be honest but I do not have and never have had a twitter account. So whatever you are on about it's not me no :)
by that logic anyone woman widowed should have had her sons taken away from her!
And likewise daughters removed from single fathers.. no matter how they ended up in the situation
batsh!t crazy logic
You're sure? That's a big presumption on your part.
Going by your logic that gay men shouldn't raise daughters, and men in general can't explain about periods, maybe gay or single women shouldn't be allowed to raise sons?
Because by your logic, they don't experience the same issues at puberty as boys do.
Or do the limitations you place on who is qualified to parent, only extend to gay men?
Were you the Social democrats guy on twitter a while back posting about the burden of " period poverty " ?
You didn't know my Dad, so you can believe what you like.
Again, I feel sorry for any young girl who can't talk to her Dad about her period if she needs to.
And you know what? I'd bet good money that neither Brian or Arthur would let their daughters down in that sense, and will be well prepared and ready to talk about it with them, when the time comes for their girls.
Im sure she didnt deal with them. Your dad may have.
I'm now wondering how well my mother could have explained how to deal with wet dreams or involuntary erections to my teenage brothers, seeing as she never experienced them herself.
I dont believe you in the slightest. You are saying you would have honestly spoke to your dad about how to insert a tampon or went to your dad and said 'here take a look at me pad Im worried this blood looks odd'.
Fair play to your dad if he helped you but he is not the norm at all.
my male gynae was pretty good. An oncologist doesn’t need to have had cancer surely?
My physio doesn’t have the same back issues as I have and I hope to F my dentist has better teeth than me. as for the menopause…. Well if I had to find a doctor who’d been through it they’d be close to retirement so I’d need a new one every few years.
seriously periods like other body functions don’t rely on lived in experience. And as for saying what’s normal etc. That’s dangerous. I haven’t experienced every type of flow but I know what was normal for me. Dangerous for me to say to you what’s normal for you. Like the aforementioned auntie…
It is not nonsense that a man can explain it. I have done it myself FFS. And I did just fine. And yes I did help with all the questions you just listed. And more you didn't too. For example given the number of combat I teach them and the amount of sport we do - I helped her through a lot of things related to sports during a period. Again I did just fine. Some miracle man I must be :p
I know enough about it to know for example that some of the questions you listed do not even make sense. For example there is no one way it "should look". There is no "normal" regarding flow. All of this is massively variable.
Your error is to assume you must experience it to be able to explain it. That is absolute bull to be honest. There are many things I have never done or experienced that I can explain to you at great length. Periods included.
And as I said to another user above - it is also a nonsense to assume your experience of it will even translate to the girl you are explaining it to. Periods and the experience of them is very variable so you can not even begin by assuming your experience of them is anything like another girls. IF you do make such an assumption you risk doing more harm than good because you will toss out all these false "Shoulds" that might be very different for her so she might think something is wrong with her.
But the thing that bothers me most is that when people go on and on and on about how you absolutely must have a female parent - its always about periods. One single tiny thing in a kids life. But it is always the thing that gets brought up. Is there literally nothing else you people can come up with as a role for a mother in the home? Why is it always this ONE thing? It's rather creepy to be perfectly honest. You need "one man and one woman". Why? Because periods. !Shiver!
Both my father and my husband are wonderful men but they have never had a period nor never used a tampon. Its complete nonsense to think a man can explain to girls about periods. They can understand all the theory and biology to it but they never have or will experience it.
When my daughter got her first period my husband bought her a special period pack for young girls which was great. But she always comes to me when she has questions regarding whats normal and whats not regarding flow, what it should look like, pain etc. You cannot tell me that a man would be able to help with these questions.
Anyway Brian and Artur will be happy to throw 'a first period' party for their girls with red balloons and splash the pictures all over social media. Thats how they will deal with it 😂
There is something else that also always bothered me a little about the "You need a woman to explain periods and what they are like" mentality.
People who say that usually know nothing about periods themselves. Specifically that periods from person to person is a very variable experience.
A woman might try to explain to her daugther what they are like and get it entirely wrong. Because she might have for example a light and painless and relatively pleasant experience each month. Her daugther might have it heavy, painful, hormonal swings off the charts and all kinds of other issues.
Really - trying to explain what a period is like to someone is about as useful as trying to explain how a certain food tastes. It might taste one way to me and I love it and it might taste another way to you and you absolutely hate it. It's a personal experience.
So sometimes having something explained to you by someone who does not think they know what it is like might even be better and more healthy than having it explained by someone biased by their own experiences. At the very least I see no reason to think it would be any better or worse.
No, I am admitting I was blessed to be raised by MY parents.
I am sorry you didn't feel comfortable talking to your Dad about periods. I can't imagine what that must have been like.
So you are admitting you were blessed to have been raised by a father and mother.
my parents, octogenarians and not social media users, read about this and we were talking about whether it was a good or bad idea.
I was surprised at how chill they were about it, I kinda expected them to be a bit more uptight, they were when I was a teen. However in their many years on the planet they’ve seen all sorts of families. People who started off traditional and ended up single, grannies and daughters raising babies when men were out of the picture, sisters raising orphaned nieces and nephews, older siblings raising younger ones. Fostering when one couple were childless and another had more than they could cope with, single women doing the same and raising cousins or nieces and nephews as they never had kids themselves. They reckoned that the outcomes were variable no matter what the starting point.And as mum says it’s easier with at least two as it’s bloody hard work and expensive. they figured that 2 men could do as well as any other couple these days. Dad reckons he’d have struggled with explaining periods to me at 10 but he probably wouldn’t have been worse than the old auntie who was living with us at the time and scared the sh!t out of me when I started. I was convinced I was going to die and her praying over me and telling me god had a plan for me didn’t help. 😂 what a fruitcake!
As far as I know on Boards the person making the assertion is the one required to evidence that assertion. So I have been asking the people asserting that one man and one woman is the "ideal" to show something that supports that notion.
I have not asserted that any other model is better or worse. All I have said is that I have seen nothing to suggest this "ideal" is in fact better or worse. So I have nothing I need to evidence. At all. But I certainly do not need evidence to suggest the non traditional is "better" given I have never once suggested or claimed any such thing!
All that said however - I am aware there are a number of studies showing children of gay and lesbian parents fareing just as well as two straight parents. A small number of studies have even suggested they fare slightly better but too few to harp on about and it's usually Lesbians rather than gay men.
The number of studies showing the children in such families fare worse is really tiny and have systematic flaws in them too.
For example here is a university collation of 75ish studies only 4 of which show the kids faring worse. The rest seem to suggest no real advantage or disadvantage either way:
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-wellbeing-of-children-with-gay-or-lesbian-parents/
There is a summary on wikipedia also which says that "scientific research consistently shows that lesbian and gay parents are as capable and fit as heterosexual parents and that children reared by lesbian and gay parents are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as those reared by heterosexual parents. Major professional associations of physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, pediatricians, therapists, and social workers have not identified credible empirical research that suggests otherwise."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_parenting
But if you find after reading the 75 studies mentioned above and you still want more - I am happy to do the leg work and try and find more for you too. But 75 is a good start considering I am not making any claims I even have to cite evidence for in the first place :) Especially given the people who HAVE been making claims have cited literally nothing at all.
No. That is not what I said.
You can believe whatever you want about "nuclear families" but don't conflate that with some of the statements that have been made on this thread like "gay men shouldn't raise daughters" .
That is pure homophobia.
What kind of parent someone is, does not come down to their gender, or orientation.
FWIW, I was raised in a nuclear family where my father was the wfh/ stay at home parent, and my mother worked outside the home. He was more then able to answer any questions I had about periods or such. Because he was my Dad and he made it his business to know. For me. This from a man who would be 96 years old this week, if he was still with us.
I feel genuinely sorry for daughters who were raised in nuclear families where their fathers were such a let down to them, that they felt they couldn't talk to them about such basic stuff.
I was my parents' only daughter and I have five brothers. I must ask my brothers how good our mother was at answering their questions about the issues boys face when entering puberty, considering she was a woman.
Reading this thread I feel blessed that I was raised by two parents whose parenting was never limited by pre-determined gender stereotypes, and despite the generation they grew up in, neither had a homophobic bone in their body.
you are requesting evidence, have you any evidence to support an alternative family unit? there are loads of studies that support the traditional family. Are there any that suggest a non traditional family model is better?
I am not asserting much to be honest. A few people have claimed that a child being raised by one man and one woman specifically is some kind of "ideal" and I have been just trying to find out if there is anything to support that idea.
They have not every time specifically said "biological parents" either. They might claim that this is even MORE ideal specifically. But the general contention is that the specific configuration of one man and one woman is what is ideal and anything else is somehow lesser or the denial of a child's rights.
Which would include I assume single parents, gay parents, lesbian parents, multiple parents greater than 2, community parenting and just about any other configuration you care to name.
And I am genuinely not seeing why. I can think of nothing special or important that is precluded - say - two males parenting a child that one man and one woman could acheive.
Neither can they seemingly as so far the only answers have been (paraphrased):
None of which appear to say anything about anything :)
I don't follow anyone on social media as I'm not on it, I only ever seen Vogue with a child on the Fairy adverts on tv, and I just assumed it was a model baby, not actually her own?
If she flaunts her own kids on social media, then I would roundly condemn her as well if she is doing it for monetary reasons.
Believing that a biological mother (and ideally both biological parents) is the best thing for children is homophobic now?
Just so we are clear as its hard to discerne from these long winded posts about race cars and the likes, is your assertion that a child being raised by its biological parents is no better or worse than some other / any other alternative? Because of kibbutzes or something?
Nah, she gets berated in my head too. I can't stand all those ******* selling their kids and lifestyles and the dopes who lap it up.
I would berate anyone for monetizing their children, I think the pps here are commenting on this pair because they are the subject of this thread. There is alot of homophobia here though, of course fathers can give their daughters information on periods etc. Some don't but decent parents don't leave it to the one of the same gender to teach their children about their sexual biology. Myself and my OH are a traditional couple but both equally teach our children about things, normal parents do these days.
Its odd that nobody berates a straight woman for monetizing her kids. Vogue Williams, of whom i have no idea what her "talent" is, constantly parades her kids on tv, magazine articles and social media. She's an attention addict just like Dowling and for the life of me I don't know what makes her a "celebrity" but she seems to avoid the ire of the Internet for treating her kids like an extra income source.
You claim the "vast majority of men would not have a clue about periods" for example. I think that is absolute bull to be honest. Men are not the dimwits about women you seem to assume. But even the ones who do have ignorance on the issue - can do what most parents do most of the time. Step up - learn it - deal with it.
This is what parents of all genders and configurations do all the time. Why? Because we do not have handbooks on how to be parents or operating manuals for children. We learn on the job.
I am curious though. This is far from the first time I have been on a thread having this exact conversation about gay parents and so forth. And literally EVERY time it comes down to "Mothers talking about periods with daughters". Its seriously weird. Why is it always this one particular thing that gets mentioned and nothing else? You'd almost get the impression that talking to girls about periods is the only actual thing mothers do - or that this is the biggest most monumental moment in a girls life bar none.
I am not convinced many or most of the mothers even have that conversation about periods or sex anyway. How many leave it to school? Peers? Internet? Or buy them a book?
But I do not think you are "denying" a kid anything. But I can understand why you feel it is. As I said above when you grew up with certain relationships in your childhood its very difficult to imagine your life without that relationship.
A useful parallel. Read the threads on forums about siblings. There is always users who post that sibling relationships were very important to them. Therefore anyone who is an only child has been "denied" that in their lives. It's the same thing. Projecting. Humans naturally project and assume that if other humans do not have what we have had that they have somehow been denied or have had an inferior less ideal experience.
Harder to imagine is that the landscape of what is "ideal" has many peaks and valleys. And that a multitude of contrasting upbringings and childhoods can be equally ideal and positive and wonderful even if people on those different peaks can not muster the empathy and imagination to acknowledge that the people on the other peaks have it just as good - just different.
One thing that you said though which is certainly not nonsense is your comment about children of single parents. But I think you are saying the right thing for the wrong reason there. It's not so much that they were missing a mother or father in particular. It is that they were missing ANY second parent. Almost by every measure you can think of they have a steeper hill to climb. Much respect and admiration from me for the single parents and children who make it work.
But if you look at the many many many studies on single parents - there is little in them to suggest that hardships and any bad outcomes were because a particular gender of parent was missing. The studies all seem to show the issues come down solely to the fact it is a single adult doing it all on their own.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/dbd35c43580ff62b54e9919958f2a898.svg)
