The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.
Yes so you missed the point in my idea about there being a fixed monthly fee for this service. If everybody who availed of the service were paying a monthly amount the funds from that fee could then go towards paying for the more expensive infrastructure needed to specifically charge cars. This would give a guaranteed income to support this infrastructure. It would be similar to how there is a standing charge on your Electricity bill to cover the infrastructure. Ionity already come fairly close to this with a 42c/kWh rate for €12 a month… What monthly fee would be required for that to come down further?
As to recent history, unless you have access to some insider knowledge, I'm not aware that eCars have ever shared details about profitable of their business. All we have is financial statements that show it's part of a larger ESB group company that has lost money.
Well yes you are correct I don't have access to the companies accounts. I am making assumptions based on the eye watering profit made by the parent company on the back of the highest electricity charges in Europe and the fact that they haven't tried to sell off ecars yet would all point to a profitable company.
Assuming you also don't have access to the companies accounts so your operating at a loss claim would also be somewhat presumptive
Yes so you missed the point in my idea about there being a fixed monthly fee for this service. If everybody who availed of the service were paying a monthly amount the funds from that fee could then go towards paying for the more expensive infrastructure needed to specifically charge cars.
So pretty much what's happening already with subscriptions for lower rates (ESB, Ionity, Tesla…) but in order to charge you less at the charger per kWh (to match your home rate), the subscription would just increase massively to compensate… so no real change for the end user in terms of price per kWh.
Businesses are not in the business of not wanting to make profit.
It's been pointed out to you many times that profits from ESB Groups generation arm cannot be used to cross subsidise other ESB group companies such as ESB customer solutions which had an operating loss of €12m in 2023. eCars is part of the customer solutions part of the group.
They don't break out eCars as a separate business line, but they do publish financial performance of the group companies. No presumption is required when they provide the data.
What response would I like — okay, like I posted in my original reply, I'd love more detail on why you needed to wait 2 hours for a charger on the M1. Where were you waiting, what car were you in, what was your SOC, how many cars were 'ahead' of you, which chargers were occupied etc.
You know, the kinds of details that someone who wasn't just completely making things up would easily remember.
Like, I don't at all deny that people have to queue sometimes for a charge, but 2 hours, and 2 hours on the M1 in particular just absolutely triggers my bullshit detector.
If it turns out you were in a Leaf I won't know whether to laugh or cry.
So pretty much what's happening already with subscriptions for lower rates (ESB, Ionity, Tesla…)
Yes. Maybe I'm thinking too simplistically but if Ionity can do a 42c/kWh rate for €12/month surely €20 a month would be able give rates even closer again to 24hr home rates which are currently about 26c. I highly doubt that the Electric Ireland rate of 26c is loss making in fairness
I presume ecars want to sell electricity to electric car owners though as that will give them profit? Increase the number of electric cars on the road and increase the potential profit, no?
Do you honestly think ecars is a loss making venture at the moment?
I take your point, but it is too simplistic. ESB operates on a completely different model to Ionity (and almost all other providers in ROI) given the size & distribution & technical characteristics of their network.
But I am not justifying their prices - just saying I think their cost base would be markedly higher than Ionity.
yes. With the amount of new hubs rolled out in the past 12 months and the cost to buy, install and commission I’m very confident that they are not making money
IONITY is a charging network created and owned by car manufacturers , with the purpose of enabling them to sell electric cars.
Much the same as Tesla’s network
Based on the cost of installation for High Power DC Hub, I would say yes, they are currently still in the red...
Take a site like Carrickmines, (even with 50% government funding for the infra), that's a lot of money spent installation of charging equipment and a substation to connect to the network. The capital costs for the site are probably around €800,000 They are likely paying the landowner a rental fee and will need to pay operating costs for the back end and the grid connection. Those are effectively a fixed fee every month irrespective of the number of customers. The utilisation rate of the big hubs across the whole day is still very low, that's a lot of daily costs and capital costs to spread across a per kWh fee.
Applegreen charge 73c/kWh versus eCars new 59c/kWh when they don't have to pay themselves rent and can make money from on site amenities gives us a glimpse into the economics of running a charging network in Ireland. Easygo charge 70c/kWh on their own 50kW chargers. The lack of cheaper alternatives to eCars tells us most of what we need to know, if it was so profitable to run a cheaper network you'd see the fuel operators dropping in at or below the eCars rate.
not on a current & opex base, no. But if you include paying off years of RnD, 6 years of free customer support 24/7 and backends, and then RnD and future expansion cost, as well as ammortizing the hardware costs for installs that were not EU and/or IE taxpayer funded, no I'd say it's a safe bet to say it's loss making.
I'd use the analogy of a car dealer spending 1million per annum on a car showroom lease and then the next day they sell a car for 50k that they bought for 35k. Is that business profitable by 15k or is it loss making by ((1/365)*(1000000))-15000-(staff costs pro rata)-(other operational expenses pro rata)
I'd say the latter. If you'd say the former then that's a wishful way to make it profitable in your mind to suit your somewhat anti-EV stance, while not strictly speaking inaccurate as on a going concern basis it's profitable.
(I worked as a commercial underwriter before, can you spot the neeerrrrrd speak!!)
I think most people would like to know the secret location you got stuck for 2 hours
Yeah, some folks are probably going to ask why you didn't use an alternative location.
For my own part, I don't mean to belittle you, I'm just trying to give good advice to help other EV drivers have as painless an experience as possible
Also Applegreen at Millfield Balbriggan shopping centre are currently installing a fast charger at the moment. Just 2.5km from the M1.
The M1 is very well served even for non tesla owners, there are 2 Ionity hubs currently on it, with a third coming near the M1/M50 junction.
No excuses for queueing for 2 hours, that was simply a waste of time
Where's the second Ionity hub on the M1? Do you mean the one in Belfast?
Did some looking back and I'm pretty sure it was Applegreen at Castle Bellingham he was stuck at
Definitely a SPOF site, so easy to see how a queue might develop. But there's alternatives close by including the service station across the motorway
I'm not going to call the M1 well serviced until Applegreen pull the finger out and put in the rest their chargers. I'd also like to see the Circle K in Clonsaugh get finished first.
Then there'll be hubs (albeit the bare minimum) at every major service station along the motorway, the way it should be
Even if you're at Applegreen Castlebellingham — plug into the AC charger while you're waiting those 2 hours!
As suspected, chose to wait 2hrs rather than use one of the several others on the M1. Lashing out with spurious arguments that no-one made, and refusing to give details, because they didn't want to highlight their own poor judgement and/or ignorance.
The M1 could certainly do with more multi-charger hubs, but waiting 2hrs at one is their own fault.
Perhaps in the early days it was break even because of the grants they availed of but when they first introduced payments they surely turned a corner on that. I notice applegreen, easygo and Circle K are roughly the same price as the old ecars (68-70c) and they're certainly not loss making ventures and expanding quite fast
I am far from anti-EV as should be clearly seen from my previous comments. In general, public charging is too expensive to attract a lot of people to EVs. Myself and the wife are both EV drivers, we are fortunate enough to have our own home with a driveway. Not everybody is as fortunate and a lot of people would be much more reliant on public charging. High prices in public charging doesn't help with pushing for a switch
Love the nerd talk though, never apologise for that 👍👍👍
I haven't driven the M1 since pre-covid and pre-EV so phrase stop me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that unless you drive a Tesla, or have a car with a very big battery, you will struggle
I remember when ecars were kicked out by AG I, and many others, filed a complaint with the NTA about a lack of competition, it didn't help with the situation but it was nice to vent
No AC charger anymore
Applegreen are probably waiting for the outcome of the latest zevi grant scheme which has been delayed since April by the looks of things.
Why install chargers at your expense when it could be subsidised by a slice of the €21m on the table.
The deadline for applications to be submitted was April. Successful applicants were meant to be informed last Wednesday (19th of June) with grant letters being executed on the 26th. Hopefully we'll see some action on planning applications and press releases pretty soon.
They wouldn't need planning for the M1 stations since they're only 4 car hubs, right?
Unless the planning exemption has changed
Would suggest checking Plugshare so. There's plenty of options before you get to the border, several outlined in this thread already. Some require a 5min spin off the motorway tbf, but much better than waiting 2hrs for a single charger. Also locations like Ionity with their 6 charger hub in City North. Quite a few options once you get over the border too. Banbridge has a number of multi-unit hubs.
I do Santry-Newtownabbey (north of Belfast) once a month and don't have any issues.
Would never stop at Applegreen Castlebellingham though due to the possibility of that single charger being in use. Two extra chargers added there, or the massively underused Tesla chargers being opened up, would mean I'd definitely go there.
The planning exemption allows 4 charging units to be deployed without planning in existing parking spaces, they still need planning permission if they need to build out a new substation or intend to make physical changes to the parking layout (more than just repainting lines)
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Yeah I completely agree, when I'm driving now and need to charge I'll make sure to go to a place with a minimum of 3 chargers, and the more the better. Thankfully there's more of them appearing every day
I have gone into detail about it. Twice. Im not doing it again.
If you dont think there are bad scenarios for EV drivers at chargers, then you will never believe anyone who tells you there are anyway. Like i said before, there are both good and bad experiences to be had with EVs. 99% of those bad experiences are when you are on a long journey and looking to charge. Ive waited in a Leaf before many times. The last few times I had to wait I was in the MG. The people who I was waiting with were in all sorts of cars.
My bullshit detector detects someone here trying to pretend that the charging infrastructure is fit for purpose in Ireland and is in total denial.
True, forgot about that. Although there should already be infrastructure at Castlebellingham if Tesla is being booted out
As I recall, Applegreen put in a big substation cabinet behind the chargers, so it's possible they just need to install the chargers
