They do elevate others also - especially in times of need. As has already been pointed out - Crowley had very little material difference in terms of experience when he was given the start against Australia.
They don't need to be as aggressive IMO in accelerating in some other positions because we've got a lot more depth.
I disagree too that just dropping in Izuchukwu for POM would be seamless - he's still a very raw talent. A lot of the things we look for from POM Izuchukwu hasn't shown yet. He's obviously a good athlete but he's far from a finished product.
Just like to add to the converstaion on selection of Predergast. I think its very unusual.
Dropping two outhalves from the senior squad and picking their young Provincial colleague instead! Unprecedented in Irish rugby.
Its a great selection and underlines the boneheaded mismanagement of Ross, Harry, Frawley and Prendergast at Leinster. Recently more than ever.
I wouldn't pick him to play v SA.
But I'm sure there in no other head coach in the world better placed to know if a young outhalf will be ready or not.
(Look how skinny his legs are. Springbok like!)
Sexton at 24 was more developed. Had a full preseason and started pretty much all of Leinsters opening games that season (Will check back)
Not many remember Sexton didnt play in the A game v Tonga (Humphries and Keatley) and stayed on the bench v Australia prior to Fiji game.
The dogs on the street knew Sexton was ready for his debut, and then for SA (At home. Not Loftus Versfeld!)
I disagree about the crowley vs prendergast experience comment
Of coarse Izuchukwu wont be the same player as pom.but he can slot in and fulfil the same role more athleticly at this point but as with anyone that's going to take that spot with vastly less nous but thats going to be the case woth any irish great being replaced
On what basis? It is not an opinion, it's just a fact. Both had 6 provincial starts, Crowley had about 80 more mins total (720 vs 640)
They play in two different positions.
One of which is viewed as much more crucial to the whole team's attack patterns and tactics than the other. We don't talk about how a blindside has managed a game.
Disagree all you want - it doesn't change the facts. Crowley, before the EI tour, had played 16 times for Munster (5 starts), for a cumulative 482 mins. He had another three appearances for Munster (c. 200 mins, most of which was at 15), prior to being given the start against Australia. He'd made 3 Champions Cup appearances (1 start), for 117 mins.
That is entirely comparable to Prendergast's numbers at this point - Prendergast has played 18 games, 6 starts for 638 mins. He played three times in the Champions Cup for 69 mins.
Crowley's 5 starts came versus Ospreys, Ulster, Castres, Dragons and Lions.
Prendergast's 6 starts came versus Lions, Bulls, Scarlets, Ulster, Stormers & Connacht.
How anyone logical can claim that is not an incredibly comparable set of experience is beyond me.
Yeah, absolutely, so if we want to evaluate him on his ability to direct an attack or manage a game, then that's fine. But evaluating him purely on people's uninformed impression/sense of his physical conditioning is utter nonsense.
The reason he's being accelerated is because of the scarcity of viable alternatives behind Crowley.
There wasn't an obvious other candidate to have in this squad - Harry Byrne has fallen away at Leinster post the SA tour. He didn't even make the trip to SA for the semi, and was on the outside by the end of the season. Ross Byrne isn't the answer.
The intention will be down there for Crowley to play deep into both tests (he's still finding his feet at this level too), with likely Frawley covering the bench from a 6-2 split, so Prendergast is purely being brought to get more training time into him and immerse him more in the squad.
And, let's be fair, cause he has shown exceptional potential. But both those things have had to align for this to happen.
Loathe to get into this (and I don't necessarily think it's the wrong option) but there's also the point Crowley was only brought in when there were injuries to Sexton and Carbery, iirc?
Sure, and Prendergast was only brought in cause I think they've given up on the Byrnes. Nothing ever happens in isolation. Though Crowley would have benched against Fiji regardless (which was his actual first cap!)
Yeah, it's fair, and probably tbh the injury to Frawley too into the mix there, but the difference now is we're over 3 years away from the next RWC. There is time to experiment a little, and bringing in a high potential player as the likely third out half really isn't surprising to me.
The one positive with 10 is that there's a good age profile (if not the depth). I think we need to see some flux elsewhere tho, made this point previously:
Aki, Henshaw, Lowe, JGP, Healy, VdF, Beirne, Murray, POM, Bealham, Conan, Furlong. That's a huge core of guys that are all 30+. We need to start seeing some flux to freshen it up.
Yeah, I agree.
At centre, all of Henshaw (31), Aki (34) and McCloskey (31, 32 in Aug) are getting on a bit. Even Ringrose is 29. Osborne might get a chance in SA, but would be very hopeful that guys like Hugh Gavin and Jude Postlethwaite can deliver on their potential and come through.
LHP is the obvious position of concern. There is something farcical tbh on Cian Healy still being part of the squad. It seems they're trying to shift O'Toole to LHP, and hopefully that goes well, but other guys are struggling to emerge there. High hopes for Jack Boyle at Leinster to step up next season.
I'd be hopeful there will be some evolution in the squad in the November internationals.
Three more starts not behind utterly dominant packs for the most part including a win away against the years top 14 champions
Plus an emerging ireland tour and an ireland a game versus new zealand that youve not included
I don't think it's a particularly bad age profile to be honest. Furlong and Bealham I wouldn't be too worried about age wise at their position. Obviously Healy is a concern but they have brought TOT for that reason.
POM will be phased out soon enough and there are several young players in this squad already in the backrow. Of all the spots I just don't see the need to worry here at all.
Second row is fine - Beirne will keep playing as long as he is our best lock, but its not like there aren't young locks in the squad so I don't see why there is anything to be worried about.
Centre is a bit of a concern alright, but even then they are starting to integrate younger players like Osborne.
The only real concern there is scrumhalf, and the competent younger players simply don't exist. A lot of is going to be riding on some coming through at the provinces.
The 'Flying Fijians' took flight against Carbery
and a sniper took out Sexton in the warm-up
a young whipper snapper came to the rescue off the bench to kick a penalty.
Where are you getting 3 more starts from? He had the exact same number of starts as Sam does now and one of them was at 15. Also most of Prendergast's starts were rather famously not with an utterly dominant pack as three of them were in South Africa with a shadow squad.
You can argue that Crowley was a better player or whatever, but that their experience is broadly the same is simply a fact.
Appearances as opposed to starts fair enough
The more I think about Sam Prendergast being selected as 3rd choice 10 in the squad, the more I think this is just an opportunity to see him in a training camp and tour environment. Farrell and Easterby will be keen to watch him. It means if they have a choice to make in the Autumn they’ll have a better idea of where they stand and he will also be a step closer in his preparation.
I don’t expect him to get any game time, so his position in the squad is much better used than giving it to Ross Byrne or Harry Byrne, as they’ve seen them plenty of times already.
I'd be utterly shocked if he got any gametime, though at the end of the day he is only one injury away from it.
Three more starts not behind utterly dominant packs for the most part
What on earth has that got to do with it? An utterly nonsensical point.
Your inability to admit when you're incorrect on basic facts (like denying Crowley and Prendergast have broadly similar experience at the relevant points in their careers) and consistent need to just dig down on your own point makes this tiresome.
Prendergast played in Europe against Sale (at the time they were top of the Premiership, and had been finalists the year prior), Stade Francais (at the time 2nd in the Top14) and Leicester Tigers.
Your bias is simply not allowing you here to see the facts.
This is pretty much exactly it.
Tbh, any assessment of Prendergast - good or bad - is massively limited by the sample size of what we have seen. And Farrell knows this too, which must be a huge reason to bring him on tour and get a really good look at him, just like he did with Crowley on the EI tour when he had such a thin CV at Munster.
If it works out, great, we get another look at him in green in the Autumn. If not, then at least we've learned something and he goes back to Leinster to develop some more.
I would add that we shouldn't forget he was in the training camp during the 6N.
Final point on Izuchukwu - and once again, to be clear, I'm not criticising his inclusion, but the progress he made to make it into a full Ireland squad is the thing that is actually really remarkable.
He's a 24 year old who played multiple AIL games this year for Ballynahinch (as recently as Round 12 - in late Jan), so he was fit and eligible for selection and simply not being picked by Ulster.
As recently as January you had people in the Ulster thread bemoaning the fact he had been given a 3-year deal with Ulster, stating he was "certainly behind Harry Sheridan" and noting how he hadn't progressed and how disappointed they were with how few minutes and opportunities he'd gotten (read the posts following this one):
Obviously there has been a coaching change since then which has been significant, but even as recently as April I think people would have thought you were mad if you touted Izuchukwu for inclusion on this tour. He's still the far more surprising inclusion here if you step back from it all than the guy who is one of our most hyped prospects in years at a position of need.
I mean youve not really acknowledged the emerging ireland tour or nz xv games either. If you feel that sale team was of the quality your suggesting then fair enough i dont no need to accuse people of bias though because they dont agree with you
See this is what is confusing, because plenty of you want to claim on the one hand that the EI tours are pointless games against terrible opposition, but now apparently those games against the Griquas etc are the defining difference that means Crowley had enough experience to warrant inclusion at that time, but Prendergast doesn't?
That Sale team was sitting on top of the Premiership at the time - that, once again, is something called a fact. Castres, when Jack Crowley played them in Jan 2022, were sitting third in the Top14, but had already lost two games in Europe (they went on to lose all four). You've called them Top14 champions a few times, but they lost the final that season, and the team Munster beat was heavily rotated (only three starters played v Munster and started the Top14 final that season).
The EI tour games are meaningless, it's about the squad environment, something Sam at least has already been in during the 6N.
The A game against NZ sure but he was only playing in that cause he was already in the Irish squad for the autumn.
Sam is unlikely to play in South Africa, but if he does it remains a simple fact that his experience is broadly similar to Crowley's and if and when he does play in the AIs he'll probably have more.
And the sale team was heabily rotated but youve not mentioned that 🤔
Im happy enough to ignore the emerging ireland tour if your opinion is that its was a waste of time but id thought tbat was not the case
If people feel their the same thats fair enough we will see how sam goes if he gets time vs sa, i hope it goes well for him
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