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Did Kilkenny (and Limerick) Ruin Hurling?

The Golden Miller

We used to talk alot of Tyrone ruining football, and often labeling it as puke football. I'd have thought the same could be said of what many label as the greatest hurling team ever, Kilkenny. They had some great traits, walk through walls for the cause, their tenacity, and physicality. Limerick later took this blueprint, and did it bigger.

But surely it's muck to watch? Much of their success was built on winning the scrappy 50/50 game, being more physical and dogmatic, constantly hacking and fouling at the heels and getting away with it. I could never understand commentators banging on about KK's skill, that they've taken the game to a new level. They did in terms of physicality, but skill? They destroyed that side of the game. It got to the point, I'd turn off the TV if they were playing.

How they got away with being lauded as such a great and skillful team I'll never know, as they were the equivalent as to what Tyrone were in the football. And unfortunately, alot of teams tried to follow them playing this game, just to compete. They, and Limerick, tried to win at all costs, but surely its lowest common denominator stuff, in terms of skill and the technical side of the game?

Tipp and Galway, two fluid teams, have one foot in and one foot out, sort of adopting this game. The rest have adopted it bar Cork obviously, the last actual team playing what we once called hurling. Kilkenny and Limerick for the last two decades have had some great qualities, in terms of being winners, but it's been hard to watch them imo. Give me an average Cork team any day, for aesthetics and entertainment in the skill of the game.

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mullinr2

The competition was a lot stronger when Kilkenny were winning All Irelands.

Tipp, Cork, Waterford, Galway were a lot stronger in that period. Limerick and Clare were not as strong but still had decent teams.

Limerick have won their All Irelands when the big 3 in particular have been so weak.

That cannot be denied

mullinr2

The competition was a lot stronger when Kilkenny were winning All Irelands.

Tipp, Cork, Waterford, Galway were a lot stronger in that period. Limerick and Clare were not as strong but still had decent teams.

Limerick have won their All Irelands when the big 3 in particular have been so weak.

That cannot be denied

threeball

It's not teams ruining hurling. It's a lack of implementation of the rules and the fact that marginal reffing calls can decide games due to the ability to score from such distance.

The 2nd issue can be sorted easily by designating technical fouls as indirect frees. The first needs a Directive from croke park to have refs implement the rules. Grabbing the arm, throwing the ball, slapping the hand holding the sliothar, slapping the body and arms of a player you're chasing. All issues that need to be dealt with. Limerick and KK wouldn't be winning as much as they have if these basic fouls were being policed.

Letting the game flow should be up to players, not the ref. You want a fluid game, stop fouling. It's not a refs job to keep the game moving.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122210602#Comment_122210602

🙄…

Usrwastaken

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211321#Comment_122211321

I always thought frees would be a bit better if you had to take em like a sideline. The glaring issue with changing frees like this means you can rip lads down around the 65 and halfway line and theres no risk of a point.

windy shepard henderson

this thread is a joke surly , this year the munster council announced there biggest attendances ever which its far from ruined

i watched the munster final in 90 back the other day , excellent game the standard that tipp and cork played at back then was top drawer but the players did not have the same level of conditioning asn now , limerick are the closest team in hurling to that level of hurling in terms of first touch and reading of the game , something that has been diluted by sweepers and unorthodox tactics in recent years

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211956#Comment_122211956

No, it would only be for technical fouls like steps, taking the ball to hand 3 times, foul handpass. Frees where you pull a guy or trip etc would be direct.

We have situations now where a guy gets a ball, is immediately surrounded by Three players who all are in contact with him, which itself is a foul, he has no chance to get rid of the ball and ends up with a free against him for overcarrying. Potential game changing decisions in the wrong direction.

Throws would be far more likely called if the free was indirect. Refs are afraid to get it wrong therefore giving a score to the defending team.

Barging is another huge problem in the game. You can't stand your ground anymore. The ball carrier can run headlong into you, get an advantage called, keep pumping his legs for another 8 to 10 steps and eventually gets a shot away or a free in when the free should have went the other way. Defender probably gets booked as well.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122212071#Comment_122212071

They also break 50% of the rules of the game in most passages of play. They're not alone but they are extremely obvious due to their prevalence and also their position in the game. We either have rules or we don't, refs shouldn't be picking and choosing when it implement them. In any other sport (except gaelic football) the rules are enforced 90% plus of the time and most decisions are correct. In both Gaelic games they're ignored ad hoc. It's a very Irish view of rules, we'll have them but we only enforce them the odd time.

Thady Quill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122204755#Comment_122204755

Don’t talk to me about Cork overcharging. The price of a Club Orange is €3 in the Pairc. Scandalous.

Thady Quill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205413#Comment_122205413

You’ll be able to name the teams who don’t throw the ball practically every time then, auld stock. This should be fun.

raindodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248228#Comment_122248228

thats super value for you

Thady Quill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248830#Comment_122248830

Keep it up, increased brand awareness means we can demand more money from the stadium sponsor. 👍

[Deleted User]

Kilkenny were miles ahead of everyone, I remember after they hammered Waterford in the 2008 final People were saying there going to win 10 in a row. Then On came Tipp.

The same will happen Limerick, they might even do 6 or 7 in a row but they will be caught.
And the day When David slays Goliath makes everything that much more sweeter.

The big difference between Limerick now & Kilkenny then is money.

landofthetree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249195#Comment_122249195

Plus the fans. Lots of gloryhunters from Limerick who never went before the success.

yagan

I think Limerick have simply raised the bar like Kilkenny once did when catching up with Cork for titles.

You could see Clare adapt to the new level in the way they covered eachother in marking, and last week was not the usual walkover that some think. That late rebound off the goalpost would have closed the gap to two points if it was just a little bit more left.

That's the margin closing, but Kilkenny have more to do as they're still wedded to their down the middle for the goal instinct which is less effective against a Limerick that takes every point opportunity from midfield.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249255#Comment_122249255

It’s a bit like saying Manchester City have raised the bar also, easy do when you’ve unlimited resource’s & can hire the best of the best.

To be fair also Limerick’s success has come at a time when Tipp are gone, Galway are weak, Cork inconsistent & Kilkenny not what they were. Waterford, Wexford & Clare have done nothing either for all their hype.

bucketybuck

Flicking through channels on Sunday and there was hurling on RTE2. Decided to watch it, watched a Clare man score a free from his own half. Then the goalkeeper hit it out into the half forward, who threw it back to somebody, who in turn also threw it back to a player in his own half behind midfield who just hit it from there over the bar. Then I turned the TV off because who the hell wants to watch that.

Clareman

Speculation into legal investigations or cases is against the rules of boards so please don't do it.

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249255#Comment_122249255

exactly; hurling like all games is constantly evolving. When Limerick's period of dominance ends other teams using new and refined tactics etc will emerge. What is beyond doubt at least to me is how brilliant this Limerick team have been. Credit where credit is due!

Davys Fits

Neither Limerick or Kilkenny are ruining hurling but throw ball is doing its best.

windy shepard henderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122212200#Comment_122212200

the problem i have with the current rules has nothing to do with referees unless its james ownes , there are too many rules then the referees accessors urge mach day referees to let the game go , so which rules are supposed to be let go and which allowed

the problem is no one knows ,everyone blames the ref on the day and the lads making the rules laugh away in the background

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122261598#Comment_122261598

Not privy to know what goes on at these referee reviews but if that is the case then there should be accountability. Records should be kept of these meetings and made accessible to anyone who wants them. How can you have a fair sport with no transparency of the application of the rules or the influence being brought to bare over refs and linesmen.

windy shepard henderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122261690#Comment_122261690

its never told to the public what they are actually looking for , i was reading brian gavin's assessment in the examiner of the game last sunday and he taught lyons had a really good game , personally i am not 100% sure what the referees association want

what would help i feel , is if an ex referee like gavin was brought on to the sunday game to discuss such decisions and explain maybe that the directive had been sent out to the referees to let as much go as possible or whatever , they do it alot on soccer Saturday with dermot gallagher which i think is excellent , he has the likes of paul merson and kris boyd put in there place a few times over the season

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122264841#Comment_122264841

The problem with that is that the refs chose to enforce certain rules a bit more after certain controversial incidents so one week taking 6 or 7 steps is OK, a crucial goal is scored on a Sunday where the player took 10 steps, next week the refs are blowing for 4. The rule is either 4 steps or it isn't.

We can't have a situation where they enforce the rules based on the topic of the day. If 4 steps is not practical make it 6 but enforce 6 not 8. Same goes for all the other rules, just because a guy is attacking and made a nice mazey run but ends up square on barging a defender with his feet planted, doesn't somehow make the barge ok.

People and players always ask for consistency and that's not what we're getting.

opinionated3

I thought Gavin was stretching it a bit to say that Lyons had a good game last Sunday. Pinged Clare numerous times for what appeared to be very soft contacts but was extremely slow to do the same when Limerick did similar. Focused way too much on Conor Cleary from the first puck of the game but somehow managed to miss gillane blatantly pulling his hurley from his hand. .

Having that all said the thread refers to the cats and Limerick ruining hurling. Not IMO. They have just brought it to a way higher level over the years and we all have to reach for that now. I am at a loss to define what exactly is a foul in hurling now when so many players surround one player, all with arms outstretched( usually high up on the chest), slapping the ball carrying arm and of course the constant throwing of the ball when supposedly trying to handpass. Tough one for the refs in fairness but as someone said earlier, all any fans want is consistency. And that's not really happening at the moment.