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Time to randomise names on polling papers?

dulpit

With the European elections today people had super long voting papers to work their way through. There is a very real chance that the people towards the bottom of these papers will be at a disadvantage when it comes to voting preference. Especially for lower order votes (e.g. 3rd/4th/5th preference), which might not be super important to the voter but have a very real impact on the candidate.

I know in Australia they randomise the names to avoid what they call donkey voting (where they vote for candidates just in the order they appear on the paper), is this something we could or should look at?

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Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233297#Comment_122233297

When I voted, I was told to show the punched part to the staff as I posted it into the already stuffed box.

So they were checking for 'alternative' ballots. Never had that before in all my years voting.

magicbastarder

The answer is simple. A circular ballot paper so no one is actually first. You can also retain them in alphabetical order too.

Field east

IMO , as a nation we take our voting seriously and we are very nuanced when it comes to voting. Those that give their no 1 to the first face on the ballet paper,their no 2 to the second face on the ballet , and so no, must be EVEN MORE REAR than hens teeth. You would wonder why there even make the effort to vote

. The current design of the voting paper is sufficiently fit for purpose - once one is familiar with the alphabet. Once you know who your 1,2,3, , and so on is you can go down through the list and in case there is confusion you have the candidates photos to verify that you have the right one - am thinking of ‘Cuiv ‘ ‘ O Cuiv’ here.

The MOST IMPORTANT THING about voting- for those that are serious/genuine voters is that they do not have the same number town twice - which is possible if you lose track of ‘ your thoughts’ as you go through the big long list as that would spoil your paper. So a check back would be desirable before ballet boxing it.

A VERY BIG HELP in voting is to write out the order of your voting- say ,at least for the first six- before you turn up at the voting station. I think that all of the local papers- and national papers for the Euros had a list , including photos, of who was going. Forward- so no excuses there.

One would swear from some of the posts here that this voting thing ‘ is an awful drag on our lives and is there anything we can do to have it less interfering in our lives’. . For ‘ crying out loud’ we are only asked once every four to five years to give a few minutes to apply our minds to something that is VERY IMPORTANT and is very sacred

And finally, Millions in this world ARE STRUGGLING in this world to win the right to vote WITHOUT INTERFERENCE

magicbastarder

Comment on the rte coverage that a lot of the ballot papers weren't filled out past preference 3.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233042#Comment_122233042

See my post immediately prior to yours.

Cookie_Monster

Would be an interesting experiment to run the next Euros in reverse alphabetical order and make it known well in advance. Just to see 1) what the candidate names all are and if there is any significant weighting change and 2) whether those with later alphabetical surname candidates do better than previously.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232307#Comment_122232307

I have a sneaking suspicion that quite a few voters only went to the 5th or 6th preference who if there were only 10 or 11 on the ballot paper would have gone all the way down.

On my local Election balott paper I voted for all 10.

On the European one I voted for all bar two who I gave a vote of 1000 and 10,000. So if it comes to my vote being needed for either of them candidates it's useless and I am OK with that of it means they do not get into Europe again.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233746#Comment_122233746

Ignoring AMKC's eccentricities, this does raise a question. If the voting paper has an error further down, is it counted as valid until the error is reached?

So if somebody gave 1, 2, 3 correctly but then skipped 4 or put 4 down twice - would the vote be valid until it needs to be transferred beyond the 3rd preference?

Sam Russell

@AMKC On the European one I voted for all bar two who I gave a vote of 1000 and 10,000. So if it comes to my vote being needed for either of them candidates it's useless and I am OK with that of it means they do not get into Europe again.

If you put any number not in sequence, starting at one, on your ballot paper your vote will be determined to be spoilt. So putting 1,000 and 10,000 for your last choice will spoil the vote - this is because it could identify your vote - simple schoolboy error.

Even when voters, faced with two ballot papers, vote 1,2,3 on the first paper, and then continue with 4,5,6 on the second paper will have the second paper deemed invalid.

This has been explained widely.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233853#Comment_122233853

See my post above. Any mark that can identify the voter renders the vote invalid. Putting the same number twice then that vote is invalid - even for their first choice.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233911#Comment_122233911

This would not be that, though

It would be valid til 3 then non transferable

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233197#Comment_122233197

First time voter in this house printed off the list of candidates from local authority and returning officer websites and brought their marked list with them. Seems a bit over the top be sending more paper to EVERYONE when only a minority of people will use this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233180#Comment_122233180

I'm delighted about that too, it's not really relevant here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232645#Comment_122232645

It's not the yellow pages though, it's an election. We'd need fairly solid evidence to justify changing the current system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233293#Comment_122233293

We really shouldn't be thinking about turning the current system upside down based on a single snapshot. Has this trend been steady over time. Did these candidates really get an advantage, if you look at their experience levels, their party support, the broad expectation of whether they get elected or not.

I've tallied multiple general and local elections. I don't recall ballots filled out mostly in alphabetical order as being a thing at all at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233194#Comment_122233194

The bould Beverly kept the 'Cooper' addition long after she ditched Mr Cooper.

Photo credit to https://electionsireland.org/images/posters/2002general/mayo.cfm

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233664#Comment_122233664

Fair play to the folks who manage to produce an analytical paper like that with no internet access, no Excel access. Having said that, it is a single snapshot from 65 years ago, so it's not really enough to suggest that there is a major issue here.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234114#Comment_122234114

I'm not so sure the age of the publication matters all that much. Voting by writing 1, 2, 3 etc on a piece of paper is one of the few areas where the nature of the problem, and the technology has hardly changed. I would argue that alphabetical voting might be more of an issue in an era whan there are 20+ names on a ballot paper compared with the good old days when there were generally far fewer candidates.

But yes, fair dues to Brendan Walsh (and his co-author), a really great mind.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233409#Comment_122233409

Really? Thats very interesting alright, I wonder if they have tip offs about planned attempts at ballot stuffing?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233559#Comment_122233559

Yes , very good post !

Is it so hard to read a list of people albeit a long list , and then number them based on preference ? No , it's not .

Were people waiting to decide as they put their numbers on the sheet ?

Surely people had their preferences worked out before going in to vote ?

If not I can only say there is something seriously amiss with the electorate .and op we may as well tell.people how to vote if we don't order ballot papers alphabetically .

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234106#Comment_122234106

The rules are the ballot must only carry the numbers on order of preference, and not be identifiable to the voter. Any deviation and it is invalid.

Thems the rules.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234326#Comment_122234326

Not sure what they were checking for.

RoTelly

TBH it is possibly time to make the constituencies smaller with potentially just 2 seats, or suggest a system were by you must get 10,000 signatures to appear on the ballot.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234615#Comment_122234615

1,2,3,4,4 is not identifiable and would be accepted up to 3

Read the rules and the 2015 supreme court judgement

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234638#Comment_122234638

That would wipe out all but the three large parties.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233419#Comment_122233419

only two likes? sheesh.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234638#Comment_122234638

2 seat constituencies ruins proportionality. If anything we should be looking for bigger 6 or 7 seaters.

It is very easy to get onto ballot paper for Europe (be nominated by a registered political party, get 60 local nominations or pay €1800 deposit), but isn't that democracy in action anyway?

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234947#Comment_122234947

I do mean this in the connection with the European Parliamentary Elections.

11k across one of those constituencies wouldn't me a massive ask IMO. You could give them a year to get to 11k, you could just say 2k or we could go by the method to get on the Presidential Ballot (though it now seems all too easy).

IMO the 27 list I was presented with I didn't know many of them and really it ends up coming down to the top 5 known people (FG *2, FF, AON and Indo).

5 seats could be broken up into North Leinster 3 seats, Connacht/Ulster 2 seats.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234975#Comment_122234975

I had also though of that but counting would be difficult as would counting a randomize list.

Or maybe have the Locals and Europeans in Different years?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235317#Comment_122235317

Two seat constituencies are utterly non-proportional and I suspect would require a legislative change too.

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234114#Comment_122234114

Yes, voters were totally different then. 🙄

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234380#Comment_122234380

Has it not been discovered time and time again that there are lots of voters who only decide what way they're finally voting, when they get into the voting booth?

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232002#Comment_122232002

Ask the candidates to attend a draw and let them draw their own names out of a drum or hat. Problem solved.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236572#Comment_122236572

Then the Presidential election and by-elections are utterly non-proportional!

Perhaps go for 3 seat cons. (Which I mentioned in my OP)

North East Coast & North Dublin (3 seat) - Maybe too small a con

North West and North Midlands (4 seats)

South East Coast & South Dublin (3 seats)

South West and South Midlands (4 seats)

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236735#Comment_122236735

Tell me you don't understand proportionality without telling me you don't understand proportionality.