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Child Item

Repossession of property

zanshinmaru

Hi, my parents own a property in Leixlip Ireland and we are residents of London UK. My step dad has fallen ill and my mum is now his full-time carer. Due to this they are now in need of funds for care relief so they have decided to sell the property. However, my step dad's brother has been occupying said property for the past seven years as an invitee, without paying rent, he does pay for his own internet and telephone line though. He has become uncooperative in initiating the sale and refusing to vacate the property unless some demands are met. His demands are unreasonable and my parents are unwilling to negotiate. My question is what steps must they now take to peacefully repossess the property? I know legally that court proceedings can be initiated but I understand this is a long and expensive course of action, is there anything else that can be done so this can be resolved sooner? Many thanks

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Ginger83

This is definitely one for a solicitor experienced in this to advise on because the invitee might be viewed as a tenant.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353288/repossession-of-property

Messy. It would have been better if the arrangement had been formalised at the outset, but even then there could be hassle.

Ireland has much slower and less effective means of evicting tenants / squatters than the UK.

Best bet might be to apply pressure now, in the form of solicitors letters, auctioneers visits / for sale signs etc. in the hope that the pressure will get to him and he will do the decent thing.

Claw Hammer

Once they tell him to go he is a trespasser. He can't be a tenant because he is not paying rent or liable for rent. Once he is a trespasser they can just enter the property when he is not there and lock him out.

zanshinmaru

we have met with a solicitor and have sent him letters to give him 8 weeks notice to vacate but he still continues to occupy. Furthermore, my mum went over to the property last week to find that he has changed the locks. Our solicitor says we have 2 options, to engage with my uncle and negotiate, or proceed with court order application which will cost €20k-€30k and take anything upto 12months…

How can someone like this have so much power over the owner of the property? I don't get it.

1874

You say parents and then say stepdad, there seems there is more to this than is being said, I don't know if you are being intentionally vague or just write that way, BUT you say "we live in London" who? you and your parents? It looks like he has acquired some rights, or he had them already due to who owned the home originally, was it a family home? . If the stepdad is so, then he likely isn't a parent biologically, did he own the property and was it his rightfully or does the relative have a claim? otherwise I dont see how they gained access originally as it clearly can't be the PPR of the "parents"

zanshinmaru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224918#Comment_122224918

a stepdad can also be described as a parent no? I call him my dad as he raised me from age 8 up. Anyway, my mum and stepdad have been married for about 30 years and during that time they purchased this property in Ireland. I'd like to say they purchased it around 25 years ago and the mortgage has been fully paid off and both of their names are on the title deed and land registry. Yes me, my mum and step dad all live in London.

Ginger83

Which direction are you taking?

You could wait for him to be out and drill and change the locks. Even if he went to Rtb you live outside the country

zanshinmaru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225025#Comment_122225025

Our solicitor has given him final notice that a spare key be dropped off at the office or change the locks back by end of office hours 7th June, otherwise every necessary step will be taken to regain and secure the property. Also that he will be held responsible for all costs and expenses relating to his continued trespass. My mum is going over there again next week to secure the property if there is no response.

ps. I've checked the RTB database and there is no registry

zanshinmaru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225025#Comment_122225025

What's stopping him from just changing the locks again once my Mum leaves? All he would need to show is an internet bill to a locksmith 😞

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225042#Comment_122225042

Yes this is a sticky situation.

I think there are locks available that are undrillable. Or you and your mam might have to stay at the property for a while

Buddy Bubs

You probably know there's a massive property crisis in Ireland and leixlip would be right up there, so the reason he is holding on (apart from the free rent) is there is likely nowhere to go. If he did find somewhere in Leixlip or close by, he would be talking 2000 euro and upwards to rent for a month. So, that's what you're up against.

But it's not his house so he has to go.

I know it sounds ridiculous after giving him free house for years but would you pay him to leave? Would possibly be cheaper than solicitor.

Then there's the other option of just taking matters into your own hands, maybe staying over here yourself for a little while and forcibly removing him. There's no tenancy or agreement by the sounds of it

SupaCat95

Hi Op,

You are very optomistic. Why should he meet with you? Have you any correspondance anywhere that he recognises you (family) as the owners? If not and he has made "improvements" and not recognising you as owners by not paying you rent. He could invoke adverse possession (aka squatters rights). Where he gains 10% ownership per year. Its going to be another year before you possibly regain the property. He will have 85% ownership at that stage. In three years he could own the property outright. In another he can register the property with land registry. If he is really smart he has been paying Capital gains tax on the 10% he acquired each year.

This is happening because you werent savvy and this con artist took advantage. This is one reason why land lords go crazy when you dont pay on time. You better have a good solicitor and hope he hasnt gotten either legal savvy or gotten a solicitor.

Get him outside of that house asap. Reestablish ownership AsAp by moving in yourself and kicking him out. **** thing to do in this envoirnment but has to be done to this grifter.

Bass Reeves

OP he was there rent free so effectively you step dad was gifting him the value of the rent. Did he declare this to revenue. If he works he has a tax liability if this is declared to revenue. Even at low water it is in the region if 50k plus of a gift this could raise a tax bill of 15-25k for him. It might be a negotiation tool.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225229#Comment_122225229

Squatter rights are only enforceable after 12 years AFAIK. However it is something people should be aware of when giving property rent free.

SupaCat95

No, Adverse Possession is gradual at 10% a year. After 10 years you own it out right and two years afterwards you register it with Land Registry. It takes some paperwork but it is do able. I looked into it with my solicitor.

The smart guy is going his paper work from the start. He is paying his CGT on it and claiming his tax relief so he doesnt have to pay a lump sum at the end. I didnt have the stomach to go the whole 10 years as my future isnt in Ireland.

SupaCat95

@Bass Reeve Actually that is a brilliant tactic. "Undeclared free rent on a whole house in Leixlip? 24k rent a year for 8 years plus penalties? Revenue wont like that but hey if you clear out by the end of the month we wont call them. Hopefully the Revenue only want back tax penalties and interest and wont seek you for tax evasion charges." Nobody likes dealing with Revenue.

Under normal circumstances, it should be easy give him three months rent and deposit as good will. The problem is if he is backed into a corner and decides he has nothing to lose but to turn and fight.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225267#Comment_122225267

You should find another solicitor. That is not how adverse possession works at all.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225267#Comment_122225267

You need to look up tge law on adverse possession. Its 12 years possession without acknowledgement of orginal owner with intent to dispossess

CramCycle

It is also not adverse as he was given permission to stay. What are the brothers demands for moving out?

zanshinmaru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225143#Comment_122225143

He actually has a property of his own is Geashill where he can live. The reason he was allowed to stay in my parents house in Leixlip is so he could be closer to his kids after his divorce about 8 or 9 so years ago

zanshinmaru

He has proposed 50% of the sale go to a sole account in his brother's name in Ireland so we don't "leave him penniless". He seems to believe my mum is taking advantage of her loving husband and won't use the proceeds of the sale for the care home he needs..

zanshinmaru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225468#Comment_122225468

see post above

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225619#Comment_122225619

Yeah, hes's not going to be left penniless. He's got all the savings he's been able to make by virtue of having had free accommodation for 7 years. Plus, he's got a property of his own that he can sell if he doesn't want to live in it, and he can house himself with the proceeds of that.

Your stepdad could offer him, say, the equivalent of 3 months' rent as a goodwill gesture, so that he can house himself temporarily while he makes his long-term arrangements. And if he has actually spent any money on maintaining or improving the house — expenditure that, in an arm's length tenancy, a landlord would be expected to cover — your stepdad could offer to reimburse him for that. That would be a more than generous offer, in my view. If he doesn't take it then, yeah, issue your court proceedings for repossession.

I'm not enthused by the suggestion that you should just break into the house, change the locks and then occupy it so that he can't re-enter. I can see the appeal but, remember, you want to sell the house. If you do that he's quite likely to take steps indicating that he is making a claim to have an interest in the property (like registering a caveat in the Land Registry) and, once he does that, no buyer will look at the house until the dispute is resolved. There is, I'm afraid, no quick way to bring this matter to an end without reaching some kind of agreement with him.

Oscar_Madison

surely adverse possession doesn’t apply here as the brother living there was invited to live there?
sorry just read additional posts now

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225267#Comment_122225267

he is living there with permission from the owner; he cannot succeed in an adverse possession claim. In addition, your assertion of 10% per year is certainly not something which exists in Ireland.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225619#Comment_122225619

I would advise him on the revenue implications if he dose not vacate a d is reported to them. I would inform him that as he is attempting financial blackmail the demand for 50% of proceeds is such an event (get this demand in writing from him tell him infirm him his ill brother wants to see it or he may have been stupid enough to text it to your mother) that he will be sued for any cost involved in recovery of possession.

I think playing soft ball will him will not work. Any sign of weakness will see more demands. Give him 4 weeks to leave, after that the legal process and inform him of the legal implications

z80CPU

^^^ This type of freeloader will see your first paragraph as just another letter in the door. Agree with your second point though.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226188#Comment_122226188

NNot Of he is self employed. Other danger for him is revenue may have his details if he has used it as his postal residence. Revenue are not sSocial Welfare or the HSE tgey demand and take there pound if flesh even if it nearest the heart and it immaterial if a few drops of blood come with it.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225619#Comment_122225619

Ok, well I think some of the latter information you provided could have been provided earlier, why have posters uninformed of details like these if you are looking for advice, the person has their own property, I still dont see what it has to do with your family or why your parents allowed him to stay rent free? You seem to be making a point of not elaborating on the details. You state he has a property in Geashill (never heard of it before), why in hell have your parents (very foolishly allowed him to stay rent free for so long and not asserted rights or control over their property). I think there is more of a reason than you are saying, that makes your parents not look as bad as they might in reality be.

To be plain, I think there is more to this than you are saying, possibly they have something to lose which he has some knowledge of, because it doesn't add up that he can so easily get away with this. ie They havent been paying something due that they should have been (tax), he appears by your version a freeloader (which I'm not disputing) but Leixlip is a very lucrative location for rentals or room lettings, it is difficult to believe he wasn't managing room lettings for your parents because they would be stupid not to, however they equally foolish if they allowed him such control or if they didn't rent rooms and simply allow him stay for free.

As another poster highlighted, this is why (one reason imo) landlords lose it for tenants not paying (this guy isn't a tenant imo), I don't think your family are blameless in this and I believe you aren't highlighting more information which you are either dismissing because it's about your parents or because it won't show them in a good light and it is clear he is trying to extract something from this himself, possibly by blackmail. IMO your family are in this situation because they are as bad as this chancer but in a different way.

Your parents should never have allowed him to stay there imo, or not at least without some rental agreement or formal agreement (that would likely have seen your parents paying NPPR which was before PPRs had property tax applicable, and then also tax on rent)
You and your family should have asserted rights over the property by being resident or regularily visiting and staying there, and the first sign of locks being changed or problems, then should have moved in and dealt with it
This is why imo landlords need to keep their records straight and do things by the book (although there are charlatans renting outside the law who I have even read of recently that defy the courts), imo your parents got something out of this which you aren't stating (even if you may dismiss is it/not know/feign ignorance of)
imo with no interest here, your parents should have sold that property (and as much as it is ok to keep, rent, pay tax etc) they clearly haven't been and your familys problems are of your own making. Thats not the sympathetic tone others have given, but I don't believe your family is blameless in this situation, at best foolish, but I think worse.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225790#Comment_122225790

IF he wants to register anything in the land registry he has to issue proceedings and prosecute them quickly. It would be far better to put him out and let him try and hold things up from outside than let him stay inside and hold things up. If he is locked out he is more likely to to a deal. He is a trespasser with zero rights and trying to get him out on an eviction civil bill would take years and cost a lot of money which would most likely be irrecoverable.

zanshinmaru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229174#Comment_122229174

the only facts I have for them letting him stay there are as follows:

he went through a divorce and lost his property in Leixlip to his ex.

his kids still lived and went to school in Leixlip.

after some problems with previous tenants the house was unoccupied for most of the year apart from holidays when we would stay there so my parents thought it would be a good idea for him to stay there to look after and maintain the place. My parents still payed for electric, gas, insurance and taxes. My uncle payed his own internet and phone line.

I didn't think these minor details were relevant but I guess I was mistaken, it really was just my generous parents helping a family member out. I was only made recently aware of the living arrangements there as I was dragged in to represent my mum and stepdad as they cannot travel right now.