nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

UK: abandoned baby is full sibling to two others previously abandoned

volchitsa

This is a very strange story, and I can't help fearing a Josef Fritzl type scenario:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5115e7k2eno

So much so that I can't quite understand why no journalists seem to think it: on the BBC this afternoon the journalist said something about how them being full siblings meant that, unusually, this time people were concerned about the father too. I mean - maybe. But that's not what it's shouting out to me - I'm wondering if the babies were not, in fact, removed from the mother, and whether she is being kept prisoner somewhere by whoever is fathering these children.

I really hope there's a proper search going on for her.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Lillyfae

Exactly. Obviously this case is baffling and the people involved in abandoning these babies are already living outside of societal norms. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they would be able to circumvent medical care in pregnancy and childbirth since most cases don't require any medical intervention whatsoever and they're not behaving normally. Medical monitoring is preferable but intervention is rarely actually needed in the grand scheme of things. Obviously maternal and natal mortality is higher without intervention but the human race would have died out long ago if it was essential.

volchitsa

All of which is kind of irrelevant to the question of whether a woman is likely to have chosen to deny herself any sort of medical care for (at least) three pregnancies for some trivial reason, but hey, whatever. I guess you could pick a single line out of almost any ongoing discussion and take it to be saying something that contradicts multiple posts by the same poster that precede and follow it.

Alternatively - and I know this is a big ask - you could read the flipping discussion and respond to the actual argument rather than to a single sentence taken out of context. 😴

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225225#Comment_122225225

It wasn't even a conversation I had with healthcare professionals or other mothers.

I never even knew it was a possibility, to be honest.

The only thing I was told, if you don't breastfeed you're boobs may become sore. If you do breastfeed your boobs may become sore.

I got a few recommendations of putting a cold cabbage leaf in your bra....I never did but some family members swore by it!

It's also not beyond the possibility that someone close to them is medically trained.....they may not be board certified but they may have years of lived experience!

Lillyfae

@volchitsa :

"If you don't bind the breasts and take medicine to reduce milk production, mastitis/milk fever is very likely"

This is not true.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225119#Comment_122225119

But I didn’t say she would.

I said it’s the sort of thing that MIGHT happen when someone goes through pregnancy and childbirth without any help, not even from a traditional doula sort of person. I wasn’t going to list all possible complications so I gave just one.

I don’t think I’m the one labouring the point here when your response to that one example - introduced by a “for instance” to explain why I’m unconvinced by the claim that she could have been just a fan of free birthing or something - is to explain that she might not have got mastitis either.

Well no. But then I didn’t say mastitis was an inevitability either. It was just one example. 🙄

Lillyfae

I was disagreeing with you that the mother would get mastitis if she didn’t have medical care, not agreeing with anyone else. But obviously you’re aware of that and laboring a point.

Nothing surprises me now

Article in Sunday world regarding the story.

https://www.sundayworld.com/news/world-news/three-babies-abandoned-in-london-parks-over-seven-years-all-have-same-parents/a1761662388.html

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224293#Comment_122224293

Well I don’t really know what your point is then: if you read back I was disagreeing with someone who said the babies were probably abandoned by a junkie or just a sh1t parent and not by someone who had no way of accessing maternity and obstetric care for some forcible reason. You were disagreeing with me therefore agreeing with him.

To me, the idea that a woman would choose to go without medical care for pregnancy and childbirth, not just once but THREE times, and all in order to abandon the baby anyway, when abortion to 24 weeks is free, is just so unlikely that it seems far more plausible that there must be an overriding reason why she was unable to get that care.

Oscar_Madison

I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t some form of CCTV in the general area that picked up something

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224259#Comment_122224259

I don’t think we’re differing at all. I just said that we don’t need to medicate ourselves in order to not lactate and that childbirth isn’t actually a death sentence. Obviously the poor mother in this case is not making the choices to have and abandon babies.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222799#Comment_122222799

Yes you can and the death and injury rate is not insignificant. WAY above the levels of deaths in childbirth in western society generally.

So the idea that a woman would choose to do that three times while also intending to abandon the baby afterward just beggars belief.

However in the absence of any information we’ll have to agree to differ on that.

Boggles

Miraculous all 3 survived.

Surely the time to release this information publicly was when baby 2 was abandoned when a pattern was established.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222695#Comment_122222695

I didn’t claim that. I claimed (rightly) that you can access medical help via alternative routes. And that the parents are probably just **** ones , which is more likely than the chained up woman in a basement scenario.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222695#Comment_122222695

We don't need to bind our breasts and while not advisable it is entirely possible to have a child without any medical assistance whatsoever during the process without there being any adverse affects to mother or baby. You can "just" give birth without help, it is possible.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221951#Comment_122221951

They had medical care though, by being in contact with the nurses - that’s my point. Most women didn’t die giving birth in the past either but that’s not to say you can just give birth with no help - because when you do need help it’s important for there to be someone around who knows. Even if it’s just to identify a problem before it gets bad.

That was only one example anyway: it was literally a “for instance”. There are many others. The fundamental point is that for a woman to go through not just one but three pregnancies and births alone and never need any help at all is not something that I can imagine a woman choosing to do because she can’t be bothered going to the doctor or because she’s a sh1t parent.

Which is what the poster was claiming.

Leg End Reject

The BBC had a picture of one of the babies found before, they didn't look like they were born to a junkie.

It's a bizarre case, it could be anything from concealing a pregnancy due to strict religious parents, incest or the mother being held captive as mentioned.

It is not normal to have 3 unplanned pregnancies and to abandon all 3 babies shortly after birth so it really does look like something sinister is at play.

magicbastarder

it's personal medical information which does not have any 'need to know' aspect to it; the fact that they are siblings is not medical info, i'd have thought.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222090#Comment_122222090

I think they would since they have announced that they're full siblings. Also these babies were healthy and although cold they were able to survive, which a baby born addicted would be less likely to do I think.

magicbastarder

would they announce that info about babies being high, though? i would have assumed not.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221818#Comment_122221818

I've had two pregnancies, didn't breastfeed either.

The only conversation I had with medical professionals was "are you breastfeeding?" "No!" "Ok" .....I certainly wasn't put on medication or binding my breasts. Was never checked for anything. I won't lie , they were painful for a few days and felt like bags of cement....but certainly didn't need medical attention.

I had natural births, free from painkillers, so certainly on my second I was up wandering around an hour after birth trying to convince staff to discharge me that night (they wouldn't) .

I was in the middle of a house move so I was back driving on the M50 and moving boxes 4 days after birth. (Himself doesn't drive so he stayed at home bonding)

Obviously not every woman is like that, but at same time it is possible to have a healthy pregnancy and birth and recover fairly quickly.

That said there's obviously something in this scenario that's not right.

If the parents were junkies the babies would be born high, and would need to be weaned off whatever substance the parents were on. I can't see that not making the news if it were the case.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221843#Comment_122221843

I think that's more likely too as some details of babies ethnicity was disclosed. Immigrants with the mother not speaking English so isolated in that sense at least. but you can't discount the other theory entirely. And either way, it could be an abusive situation. Hoepfully, the authorities doing what they can to investigate.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221818#Comment_122221818

Eh, yes I have, a few times and I'm in the age bracket where most of my female friends have too. None of my friends who didn't breastfeed were binding their breasts and taking medication. If breastfeeding has never taken place then milk production doesn't become established.

Most women will definitely require some post partum care (not necessarily medical) and should receive it but it's not a certainty that they will need it. Being up and about after an hour is very unlikely though.

geotrig

honestly the jump to fritzel type scenario is a stretch, I'd be more inclined to think some illegal immergrants working off grid afraid of going to public hospitals or the likes could be the case. surely with the amount of cctv that they can piece together they must have some potential footage movement

L1011

A similar case here (full siblings abandoned in phoneboxes in both ROI and NI) in the 60s/70s was covered on one of those family reunion DNA shows and appeared to be a long-running affair; but that was back when it was probably a lot easier to get an experienced midwife to provide assistance quietly.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221780#Comment_122221780

I don't mean this nastily, but: have you given birth yourself? The milk comes in no matter what, and women who decide not to breastfeed need to follow various instructions to reduce this happening as much as possible.

I think they've now stopped giving bromocriptines systematically but that means it's all the more important for the woman to be observed to ensure she doesn't develop mastitis. The point being that this requires some level of medical care, and I'm really not convinced that a woman being kept prisoner in some way is going to be getting the best care possible. Complications are likely, is my point.

rogber

Yes, an extremely bizarre case

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220566#Comment_122220566

Not really. Alot of women choose not to breastfeed and don't need to do this. If the baby is physically away from the mother it's likely milk production would be negligible too. It's very unlikely she left an hour old baby somewhere without being spotted though. There was some premeditation in that it was away from CCTV.

God love her and the babies though, something very wrong is occurring. Really hope that the children are geographically close to eachother, it would be very difficult to place them together but hopefully they have as much access to eachother as they need and not just "contact".

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221305#Comment_122221305

The cases don't have to be identical in all respects. Fritzl and Castro both had criminal records for one thing, so could possibly be identified by the babies' DNA.

Moreover Fritzl may have wanted to keep the babies because he saw himself as a "family man" (eg large, stable family in his other/public life) and also, he knew he could control his wife's curiosity by getting Elizabeth herself to write the letters asking her parents to keep the babies.

We don't know why Castro finally allowed one woman to keep one baby after causing multiple abortions through terrible beatings (yet not preventing future pregnancies). Maybe he saw that woman as harder to control and giving her a "favour" helped him in some way. Or maybe he was afraid she would not survive another beating and he wanted to keep her. So Castro and Fritzl acted differently themselves, but the point in common, of a woman/women being kept prisoner was the same.

Assuming the mother is being controlled in some way in this case, there are so many possible different living conditions that it's impossible to say that the father could have done like either Fritzl or Castro but just chose not to. He'd have had to adapt to his own situation, whatever that was. Nosy neighbours who'd hear a child crying for instance.

ceadaoin.

Its obvious that there is a terrible situation behind these child abandonments, whatever form that might take. In this day and age, in a country like the UK that has free birth control, free abortion, and free healthcare, there's just no need for it. To deny this fact is just a bit weird.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220748#Comment_122220748

But in the examples you listed the abusers wanted to keep the children (that weren’t aborted) because they considers them as their property, just like they saw the mothers. It just doesn’t seem logical to abandon the babies unless they were “imperfect “ some shape or form but no conditions were reported in the news. Someone like that does not simply forfeit having someone else in their control.

Look, I’m not saying that you are wrong or that it’s impossible, just that it seems unlikely to me.