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Child Item

Crackdown on learner drivers

Kurooi

This article caught my eye:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41403299.html#:~:text=The%20Road%20Safety%20Authority%20has,address%20rising%20road%20fatality%20numbers.

The claim is that cracking down on L drivers is a measure to reduce road fatalities. To be clear, I wholeheartedly agree on doing that, I just felt the article should have provided some figures, and went off to search on my own.

I found that as of end of 2019 there were 3,047,000 driving licenses in Ireland, of which 233,000 were learner licenses. That's 7.6%.

Then fatalities, Ireland saw 173 fatal collisions in 2023, and that on an average year 12 fatalities involve a learner driver. 12/173 = 7%. Now if a population comprising 7.6% of drivers (or figure of 9% that the Irish examiner gives in that article) are involved in only 7% of fatal crashes, those drivers drive SAFER. And key word being involved.

Now I myself am not overly happy with using figures from different years, and this was a quick bit of googling, but I feel it's on RSA and journalists to put some substance behind the claims. They are painting learner drivers as some kind of a menace on the roads while in reality, it seems, this doesn't check out. There are also other potential angles at argument, I see how L drivers might drive less, but I also pre-emptively refuse to accept that argument because we have demonised male and young drivers for road accidents for the exact same reason.

Inviting discussion and absolutely feel free to improve my stats there.

Sources:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/f392d-bulletin-of-vehicle-and-driver-statistics/#:~:text=There%20were%203.047%20million%20current,7%2C039%20on%20the%202018%20figure.

https://www.rsa.ie/news-events/news/details/2024/01/01/road-deaths-in-2023-increase-by-19

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41403299.html#:~:text=The%20Road%20Safety%20Authority%20has,address%20rising%20road%20fatality%20numbers.

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csirl

Most learner drivers drive with an instructor with dual controls or a responsible experienced driver sitting beside them watching the roads. The % of unaccompanied learner drivers is a lot lower than the % of learner drivers. The stats would need to be for % unaccompanied to be valid.

Deub

You are oversimplifying things. You take only deaths. You know that it is not always people responsible for an accident that dies.

There is no discussion that leaners driving on their own should be stopped. The goal of this scheme is to have new drivers learning from an experienced driver. When they drive on their own, they take wrong habits that creates accidents.

Squatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353384/crackdown-on-learner-drivers

great topic, i wholeheartedly agree. too often the RSA come out with brain farts that get enforced without due dilligence. its easy to for example reduce speed limit on national 2nd roads to 80kmph, because speed kills. but the reality may be that speed kills when you are texting and driving, then the onus should be on stamping out texting, rather than texting at 80kmph. i believe they tried to bring in an NCT test for motorbikes in the past, and couldnt justify it.

ELM327

There's no such thing as a learner license. It's a permit. Subtle difference, but important. Learner permits are only for driving alongside a licenced driver.

The clancy amendment has been one of the best ideas yet, and it should be expanded.

Hellrazer

Id like to know how many accidents "N" drivers were involved in - My experience says that N drivers are absolutely worse than L drivers - its like theyve been held back while L drivers and suddenly go nuts when they get their full licence.

A lot of what I see day to day is them speeding, overtaking dangerously, usually driving higher powered cars.

2 weeks ago a lad over took me across a traffic island -N plates on the car.

Almost killed by another one on the Dunboyne to Maynooth road by a lad again with N plates overtaking on a solid white, on a bend at a hill.

My own opinion is that they should be restricted in horse power until their 2 years have passed but that wont ever happen.

gipi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189311#Comment_122189311

There's a reason they're called "N for numpty" in our house! I see similar incidents on a regular basis.

animalinside

The Irish driver's test is essentially a scam. You could be a completely safe driver and fail the test and vice versa.

Long ago there were no driver's tests. In America there is one but it's extremely easy to pass.

I think people should start thinking more about how they drive and what can happen, not wasting time with this learner driver stuff.

ToweringPerformance

How about a crackdown on every other driver using a phone whilst driving. The situation is out of control around Dublin.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189311#Comment_122189311

Something very similar happened to me twice last week on the Katherine Tynan road, both times young lads in Golfs (not the same one) with N plates. I wouldn't mind, this fast aggressive overtaking it gets them nowhere, fast.

I gave them the Luigi stare when I came up beside them at the lights at the junction with the Belgard Road but they don't GAF. Usually looking at their phones.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189311#Comment_122189311

There's no guarantee that the drivers of these N-plated cars are actually "N drivers". There's plenty of completely incompetent fully-licensed drivers out there doing stuff like this on a daily basis, and there's no reason to think that they're not just driving a car with N plates on it on account of someone else in the family recently passing the test.

In the Northern Ireland, R plates have to be removed or covered when the car is being driven by someone other than the Restricted driver that is required to display them, but there's no such requirement here (and it's the same for L plates).

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189248#Comment_122189248

The article in question singles out road fatalities as the concern and reduction of is the goal of the measures. So it only makes sense that I analyse fatalities, not accidents in general.

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189367#Comment_122189367

That's actually largely where my heart is at. I welcome crack downs on people clinging onto L plates, they should get a move on and either finish the license or lose the right, but I so often see people on their phones, and RSA confirms 20-30% of accidents are through distraction and significantly phones.

https://www.rsa.ie/road-safety/campaigns/mobile-phones-and-distractions#:~:text=According%20to%20international%20research%20distracted,fatal%20and%20injury%20collisions%20annually.

Even then so often I see someone driving erratically and they are eating, putting on make up, fiddling with their car controls or just turning to the passangers. The road culture is absurd, I wouldn't go around blaming L drivers for squat.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189396#Comment_122189396

I get that. Its just that from my experience they are all N plate drivers. It cant be a coincidence that the ones Ive experienced are all driving daddy or mammys car and just put the N plates on for a few hours. Mostly Golfs, Passats or Audis seems to be the preference plus the odd BMW. You can tell them a mile away.

Trampas

I was a few cars behind a l driver the other day. The driver managed to stall a car turning left a t junction that didn’t require them to stop. They stop about a little into it and the back of the car was still sticking out on the road. It was a country road which they could see around and the corner so no need to stop. Lucky the car behind didn’t rear end them. They managed to get going again after 10 seconds or so. It wasn’t in an instructors car but whoever was in the passenger seats I assume.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189311#Comment_122189311

I tend to be a lot more wary of N drivers than L drivers- L drivers in general tend to behave as L drivers do- ie somewhat cautious - I give them all the space they need and never complain if I’m stuck behind them - it’s life and we were all there at some stage.

But yeah N drivers- I see many doing 130+ on mortorways -often they’re impatient and in a hurry - I guess it’s the N sign that’s influenced me - many non N drivers are bad drivers but with the N sticker on the back they tend to get extra attention

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353384/crackdown-on-learner-drivers

What's the data on number disqualified drivers and drivers with no [permit/licence/tax/insurance/NCT]?

IIRC the disqualified ar 280,000 l

hoodie6029

Huge amount of churn in the system too. People who are on their umpteen learner permit renewing with no intention of do a test have to book one to renew. They delay others from getting their test slots.
By fact if their inexperience, the accident and fatality rate of learner drivers will be a much higher percentage than 7% or licences equals 7% of accidents.

Irish attitude to laws, car dependent housing, high cost of motoring and scant enforcement is a recipe for disaster. There aren’t more driver and passenger fatalities because of continually improving car safety.

wildwillow

It is crazy to see cars with both N and L plates displayed and often being driven by the parent. The relevant plate should be displayed while that driver is at the wheel and either removed or covered when driven by another person. N drivers are often the most dangerous and tend to tail gate.

maik3n

With the advent of the new Insurance checking APP, I was actually quite surprised to not see the license angle included?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41403299.html

Surely, the technology/capability is now there.

Although, perhaps the RSA/Gardaí are waiting to release this update at a later date?

With that said, the cynic in me might posit that the Government is making too much money from learner permit renewals so they won't touch said subject?

JP Liz V1

I thought you could only postpone the test twice so how can many keep getting their LP renewed without doing a test

There is a lot of older drivers who think they own the road, assume full licence, don't care for other road users

Jakey Rolling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189963#Comment_122189963

there used to be L plates with suckers so yo could remove easily. Haven't seen those in ages, only ones I could find were stick-on, not feasible to be removing and reusing those with any regularity.

astrofool

L drivers are a very easy target, it's the road equivalent of blaming foreigners or taxing the rich, i.e. impact someone other than me.

alias no.9

The driving test is not difficult, just get on and do it, if you're not ready for the test, you're not ready to drive alone

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190860#Comment_122190860

Halfords sell magnetic L plates.

(eta - thats not a recommendation, just an observation. I don't know how good they are).

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189486#Comment_122189486

like I said, a L driver could be responsible for an accident with fatalities. You look at your partial data and draw conclusions with it. Saying L drivers are safer than “normal” drivers is misleading.

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191009#Comment_122191009

Any driver could be responsible for an accident with fatalities, so that's a non-statement.

Partial data being total drivers and total road accidents in Ireland? It seems at least a step better than nothing. But I did invite any and all to provide better figures if such can be found. Really RSA or journalists should provide better information but they didn't. If you think I'm misleading go on, how?

tohaltuwi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189311#Comment_122189311

my late father always said the most dangerous drivers were the ones who had newly got the reigns of a license, and have not yet the experience of knowing when they are pushing it. Learners are generally on their best behaviour and naturally proceed somewhat nervously, and that accidents that happen are usually minor

Incidently same follows in the hobby aviation world, at about 100 hours accidents are most frequent because confidence exceeds experience and boundaries are starting to be pushed, eg entering unsuitable weather.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191029#Comment_122191029

How? Really?!

You admit yourself that you have partial data and yet, you are able to say L drivers are safer.
If that’s the case, it means drivers are getting worse with experience.

Your conclusion would also question if the driving test is needed. Do you think by doing that we would reduce fatalities on the road?

[Deleted User]

While experience counts, I don't think it necessarily makes someone a good driver. Someone could be on the roads for years with a full licence, but has gotten lazy, neglects basic observation or developed other bad habits, or is just purely over confident, so takes chances.

I often thought some refresher training or some kind of recheck every ten years when you renew your licence wouldn't be such a terrible idea. (Even though I'd hate to have to do it myself!)

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191108#Comment_122191108

I never said partial data, you did. I'm surprised you'd see total drivers in Ireland, total L permits, vs total road fatality accidents and total road fatalities with L permits involved as partial. Are you sure you understand the word? What , to you, would be the full data? Do you need the entire world's data , or do you need their DOBs? What is it.

But yes, I can make a claim that way, you've offered nothing of substance at all to rebuke. You just assume L drivers are worse, so that to you is now a fact you will defend. That's not objective or smart is it? If you hold such a strong view then would you not be able to provide any stats to back it up?