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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,584 ✭✭✭✭phog


    No one in the world with no RWC winners medal is like being ahead during a game but to lose the lead before the game ends.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,117 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    guys like Coombes and Baloucoune are given one or two games (most players don't even get that) and if they don't absolutely shoot the lights out, they're permanently discarded and labelled "not good enough"

    Baloucoune is the perfect example of why this is all absolute nonsense.

    I have been absolutely eviscerated on here for suggesting that Coombes hasn't been showing what the Irish coaches wanted him to.

    But in the case of Baloucoune, we know this is the case because he told us himself. This is what he said this after he came home from the EI tour;

    "I've just listened to what the coaches want from me, trying to get off my wing more and bring that into matches and training as much as possible."

    "The biggest point [from the coaches] is just trying to get more involvements"

    "Trying to get myself involved as much as possible throughout games and then just back my ability to beat a defender or use my speed in defence to catch players as well."

    All of which is 100% consistent with how Farrell uses his wingers and why the back three is usually populated with guys like Keenan, Hansen, Lowe and JOB who can pop up anywhere. It's also 100% consistent with the speculation up to then as to why he wasn't getting games, but he got clear feedback from the coaches. So far, so good.

    What happened after the EI tour? Well, in the next test match, against the Springboks in Dublin, Baloucoune is given the 14 jersey. Not a Wolfhounds game, not a meaningless filler match against Fiji or Georgia, a starting spot in a full-strength team against a full-strength SA.

    So what do we know? We know he went on the EI tour to show what he could do, the coaches had given him specific things to work on and then they gave him a gilt-edged opportunity to show what he could do over 80 minutes in a real test match environment. Incidentally, Jimmy O'Brien came off the bench (in the centre) that day.

    How did it go? Well, he was… quiet and two weeks later, Jimmy O'Brien was wearing 14 against Australia and he's been a fixture ever since, while Baloucoune hasn't featured in a single squad since then.

    I don't think Baloucoune was jettisoned because of the SA game, he was jettisoned because of everything that led up to it, and because Ireland had a lot of other guys who could do what they wanted. With the arrival of Nash in 2024, he's further away than ever IMO.

    Some guys take their chances and some don't. Some guys can do what is asked and some cannot. All the coach can do is tell the guy what he wants, give him a chance to show what he can do and if he can't, move on. That's just the way it is, and blaming the coach for that is a bit mental to be honest.

    Farrell is so despised by a minority on here that I don't expect this to make an iota of difference, but Baloucoune is a shining example of why Farrell is a very good coach.



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know we're in the process of binning off every Leinster player who lost the Champions Cup final in extra time, but, Larmour actually had a great game yesterday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,584 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    I haven't suggested their not good coaches have i?



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  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    He did hes having a good season im general

    Suggesting leisnter players maby shouldnt be 3 or 4 deep at positions in the national squad is not binning every leinster player its a massive ossue with the conversation there are a number of world class players nobodys ever disagreed with playing. Suggesting frawley shouldnt be automatically in squads is not a critique on porter



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I mean it was slightly tongue in cheek, my main point is that Larmour played very well.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I think he played well - much better under the high ball than I expected, and that last ditch tackle was exceptional - but I still question him defending in regular phase play.

    There was 2-3 times he looked completely lost at sea when there was a large openside, he was the edge defender and had to make reads / decisions. He got completely turned 360 a couple of times.

    And I think it's fair to say he didn't offer as much in attack as he normally does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Ireland are doing a phenomenal job.
    The ongoing discussion is centred on whether or not the approach is maximising potential.

    Is the list of achievements enough justification for the approach being taken to say it's maximising potential?

    Like beating New Zealand 2-1 in a test series in New Zealand, retaining the World number 1 spot for a record length of time for a team from the Northern Hemisphere, and winning back to back six nations.
    Is all of that enough of a justification for the approach taken considering the failure at securing a back to back grand slam this year and failure to beat New Zealand in a World Cup quarter-final last year?
    I think Ireland are getting about 90% out of the total resources available to select from, and are getting the chosen players to about 90% of their ability consistently.

    Where Ireland are failing in my view (open to debate of course) is at getting 100% out of the resources available and getting the team to 100% in crunch games such as against England in Twickenham or New Zealand in the World Cup.

    The thing is it's impossible to prove a what if, what could be etc. All we can do is discuss the possibilities.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,584 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Discussion is fine once you agree, however, have an opposing view and you will be told you hate, despise, dislike, Farrell and or the IRFU. It's a joke at this stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes you have

    You bang on about Kleyn and that he should have been picked, plus multiple other players that should have been picked.

    The comment I replied to said they made a mistake based on training

    Fairly clear you are calling them bad coachs if they can't spot based on matchs and training these players you think should be starting….

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    They're clearly very, very good coaches. We're lucky to have them.

    The point people are making is that they're not infallible. People are entitled to disagree with a coach's selection. (I'd suggest it's a pretty normal thing to discuss in any sport).

    Yet any time someone disagrees with a selection, it seems to be met with dismissiveness akin to "they pick the best players, end of, tough" or worse "abuse / resentment / hate".

    It's not; it's just a difference of opinion.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,584 ✭✭✭fitz


    I think that's also a bit reductive though. By and large, the comments that read as dismissive are about players who have had multiple opportunities, haven't taken them, and yet are still pushed as not being given a chance (Coombes is a prime example).

    I'm not sure it's fair to say people are immediately dismissive, the comments that read that way, to me at least, usually seem to come when there's continuous calls for players that have had ample chance to change the coaches minds, and haven't managed to do so.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Nope Iv said theyve made mistakes. All coaches do. Less hyperbole would he no harm



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Multiple opportunities in this case meaning a game against usa 4 years ago where he scored a try



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,584 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Haley, Healy, Frisch, Kleyn to name but a few - multiple opportunities my ass

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    How many times do you want to have the same argument time and time again on the same platform? Christ almighty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    "Less hyperbole"

    You said every second row in Ireland, apart from Beirne, was an inferior player to Kleyn.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You seem to be going in circles,

    Healy, Frisch and Kleyn are no longer available for Ireland, not sure how long you want to keep discussing them? in the case of Frisch and Kleyn they are playing for their home country.



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  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,584 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Well he is South African, you can claim Ezebeth is better than every second row in Ireland, he still ain't going to play for Ireland

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If we consider SA to be using 100% of their potential (personally I would) there's a massive jump from the performance level required at club level and international level.

    Same with Wales for years.

    I don't know how you motivate Leinster/Ireland players that extra bit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    How many games has Ireland lost in 4 years?

    I don't think the players are not playing at 100%, I think a lot of this comes down to luck and the bounce of a ball. Frawley nails the kick at weekend and would we have the same discussion?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Munster started rapidly improving when he got injured. They're top of the URC and favourites to win again. Just how indispensable is Kleyn, really?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Munster started rapidly improving once they didnt gave 20 or so players injured. Hes very indispensable the hope is edogbo can grow into the role but tighthead locks are amongst the highest paid positions in rugby for a reason



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,517 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    and favourites to win again

    ??

    nope, not by a long way

    Screenshot_13.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Nice side step of the question

    In any of the big games I watched Munster play in Europe or against Leinster, I haven't seen Kleyn shine or get on top of other top class second rows. Maybe I missed it, but can't off top of head

    Anyway its a pointless conversation as the guy is a SA player, also it was up to Paulie to pick him and he didn't.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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