Agree to disagree
Just to point out tho, this can all be true, but can all be down just to Farrell seeing him up close.
It doesn't necessarily mean he improved because of the tour. He can still have been just as good a prospect (and was, imo) completely independent of that tour.
I'm not convinced 10 days in camp and 3 games vs the likes of the Griquas transformed him into an international prospect, talent-wise, rather than just from seeing him up close.
It also doesn't follow that Rowntree didn't see him as a prospect either.
No, I completely agree, I'm not saying he became appreciably any better a player for going on the tour. It might have given him a shot of confidence, but the primary point I'm making here is it propelled him up the chain and showcased his skillset in a way that hadn't happened at that point.
I'd agree and that's fine, it clearly propelled him up the Ireland chain, but the further point I'd make is I don't think we can infer that, simultaneously, Rowntree saw his as down the Munster chain, and the EI changed that.
He was in charge for 1 game before the EI squad was announced. As soon as the players returned, Rowntree picked him as back-up 10 vs Bulls (behind Carbery), at 15 vs Leinster because of injuries and at 10 vs Ulster.
That all took place before the Fiji game.
We just honestly don't know the reality though of where Rowntree saw him prior to the EI tour.
I do honestly think given his talent and how natural a fit he was for Prendergast's system they were quickly going to identify him as their best option anyway pretty quickly.
Well, assuming these are correct Ryan and BOD weren't 19 when they first played for ireland like the two examples. I guess you could be right and we haven't produced fitzgerald or darcy level talents in the last twenty yeas or so.
and now Rowntree
Yeah, fair point, I mean last night i said “I think Rowntree is brilliant”. I was bang out of order there. I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m critical of Crowley.
If you ignore the good things I say about Munster and only enter the bad ones onto your spreadsheet, then of course you’ll come to that conclusion.
It’s very deliberate and utterly bizarre.
I am a big fan of Munster, I always have been. My beef is with the sheer number of Munster fans - you included - who are so resentful of Ireland and Farrell.
I mean, yea it usually doesn't make sense to cap someone that young in ireland because we tend to play guys intensively a bit later. That's the point.
this is like a chess game with just two kings left on the board, it won’t end until someone just gets bored. Not a new point made in about a hundred posts and once again it’s become crap from the same handful of posters
Like I said, you were critical of Healy and Crowley for not taking the Munster 10 jersey when Carbery was injured. When his 2 year period of injury started, Crowley was 19 and wasn't even in the academy, and Healy was 20 and in year 1 academy.
It's way too harsh and is completely consistent with you occasionally being very harsh on Munster, imo.
The equivalent would be being critical of Prendergast not taking the Leinster 10 jersey when Sexton was injured last season and now retired into this season. There's a reason absolutely nobody is making that argument.
Fwiw, I agree that Rowntree is brilliant. But pointing to him being there for 3 years, doesn't map to the the reality that he was only selecting the team for 2 games prior to the EI tour.
The equivalent of that argument would be being critical for Farrell for not picking whomever when Schmidt was head coach.
It is, indeed, utterly bizarre.
It's a bit of a vicious circle in that there's very little pro rugby to go around for 19 year olds in Ireland so they don't get a chance to prepare physically for the rigours of the international game.
True i suppose france have prod2 but i do think its no harm.lettong a player build himself up to 22 or 23
You don’t think France play guys intensively later on in career? They do their entire career from what I can see
yeah french pros regularly play over 1800 minutes per season
Yea but they also play them intensively earlier, so cap guys earlier. They play more earlier, get capped earlier and so on.
and France, over the course of the last decade, have been comfortably worse than Ireland. So not really something to yearn to emulate.
5th Nov 2016 - One of the many fav highlights Zebo provided.
Within a year he was dropped from the squad having decided to go to Racing 92
He was/wasn't offered a CC
**“It’s a shame, I think he would have been really in the mix. I think he would have made the [Ireland] squad. It’s sad for him,” said Munster director of rugby Rassie Erasmus.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/racing-92-make-simon-zebo-an-offer-he-couldn-t-refuse-1.3266364
I'll get my coat
**totally out of context
I wasn't yearning, just stating a fact. Talent isn't ready as young in ireland.
I don't think it is always ready in France when they flail about and select them anyway either.
Yea, possibly correct on that. Maybe 19 is always too young. For international play at least.
Throwing young players onto the pitch so they pick up injuries and shorten their career is not something to be admired or something we should be aiming to replicate.
Ireland has a successful system which manages players so they hopefully have a long career, with our small population this makes sense because we don't have as many players as a France/England have. If Ireland had 14 pro clubs with another league of 16 professional clubs then you would have a huge production line
We don't, we have 4 pro clubs.
Baptiste Jauneau is 20 and has 60 caps with Clermont and has captained the side this season.
Fintan Gunne is 20 and might get a few games off the bench next season if he's lucky.
Costes, Tuilangi... heaps of u20s get integrated quickly into pro rugby when they show they have the talent.
There's no real comparison in the experience young Irish and French players get. It's not something we can do much about with the small number of teams and fewer matches to go around.
With Edogbo injured there's probably no obvious pick as the pusher lock for Emerging Ireland. Putting Kleyn in alongside an O'Tighearnaigh, say, could be a good move overall.
you were critical of Healy and Crowley for not taking the Munster 10 jersey when Carbery was injured.
No, I never said that either.
But it's utterly ridiculous to have to rehash arguments from over a year (or two?) ago, I have nothing to prove to you, and actual debate is pointless.
So I'll go on hating Munster, you go on hating Ireland and there will be the peace.
Yea, agreed.
I get in a lot of trouble for not actually being told first hand these things, but i'll go out on a limb and say, that Kleyn would just say 'nope' and hang up.
I mean, just because I don’t think
… doesn’t mean I hate Ireland.
Ultimately the IRFU are his employers, so it would be wise to stay on good terms if he has eyes on a contract extension beyond his current one. But perhaps he plans to move on when his contract expires; who knows.
I'd imagine he's very happy with his career trajectory - playing for a European team on better money than he'd get back home, and winning a World Cup while representing his native country. The "'nope' and hang up" bit would be if he's sore about not getting picked for Ireland, which I can't imagine he's too concerned about in reality. And it's not as if going on a rugby tour to SA is an unpleasant experience.
From the IRFU's perspective it could be a good use of an asset. On the last tour the EI scrum struggled against the grizzled veterans of the Currie Cup teams, or some of them anyway. An inexperienced tighthead's task would be made a lot less arduous if Kleyn was pushing behind him, and backs like Prendergast and Postlethwaite would be getting cleaner ball to work with from the setpiece.
I kind of think this will be his last contract either way coming up. You think they will allow an extension? They don't seem to favour long term NIQs any more but maybe he's a special case.
Who knows? The long-term trend seems to be fewer and fewer NIQs, but also there aren't as many hard and fast rules, with cases being looked at more on their individual merits. I could see him seeing out his career at Munster, which probably means another contract after the current one.
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