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Easiest way to get a GUI handicap

magic_murph

I play very in frequent golf and can't justify paying full membership for a clue knowing I will only get out a handful of times a year (I have young kids)

I do get the chance to play in some competition and the lack of handicap is always an issue - I generally play but don't submit a card - not that I would have a chance of winning or anything

If the best, most affordable option to do an out of county membership then simply submit three cards from when I play a course locally or is there a better route to take?

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FixdePitchmark

So our on course participation per capita..(without doing actual maths ) is phenomenal versus rest .

Must be highest in world..(per capita)

Dr Turk Turkelton

I seen these figures before- serious rate of participation in Ireland compared to almost everywhere else.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062880#Comment_122062880

Do you know of any course that does not enforce it or are you speculating?

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122064896#Comment_122064896

all those independent golfers pay to play golf, its not free, often large amounts, theres a lot of tourist rounds in there

monkeybutter

sweden the Netherlands the shocker there

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122064164#Comment_122064164

id say you must well avoided on a timesheet

coillcam

Some stats on global participation from 2022 by the R&A if anyone wants to read.

https://assets.randa.org/c42c7bf4-dca7-00ea-4f2e-373223f80f76/ed52a88d-f532-4d27-9606-ec94f8af9430/The%20R%26A_Global%20Golf%20Participation%20Report%202023.pdf

NI&IRL are pooled together as one union but the numbers are interesting. If you take it as almost 7m population on the island, they've said that 1m people play golf (9/18 holes and including unaffiliated golfers). There are 260k registered golfers which I assumed means attached to clubs.

That to me is a huge overall number (1m) and I thought initially that if 1 in 7 played at some point surely they must be including people who've passed away!

Interesting reading some of the other countries playing numbers vs population.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062616#Comment_122062616

A lot of really good points.

I think it illustrates the balance that needs to be found between the traditional model and what the "modern" golfer wants. Now, at the same time, just because the modern golfer wants it, doesn't mean he gets it either. I know there's an element of "because we can" with entrance fees, IMO there'd also be a huge element of playing catch-up with members who have been there for years and paid all the levies and costs that would have been involved in creating the course/club. Levies for drainage, new greens, new land etc etc.

If there's a couple of hundred thousand rounds being played by non-members of clubs, there's potentially an untapped resource out there, but, the question is, how many of these rounds/players could actually be converted into memberships ? Maybe the 6 rounds a year guy has no interest in more than that. Maybe the 12 rounds a year guy would love to be a member somewhere. The problem I see is that for the guy who wants to be a member, he can right now. He might not get into a club beside him if he's in Dublin but other than that there's ok value to be had. Will this igolf thing work against him joining somewhere if he feel's he doesn't now need to ? Who knows.

Its a tricky one, for every point I think of, I come up with a counter point straight away. I think ultimately it will come down to whether someone buys in to being a member and part of a club, or thinks of golf like their gym sub and just wants a venue for their regular 4 ball with their mates once week from April to September.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063958#Comment_122063958

Yawn... bore

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063345#Comment_122063345

They are the facts you can't even dispute them

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062807#Comment_122062807

A bit of fact checking before you put up unsubstantiated posts would help you mature into a responsible adult.

monkeybutter

Ignore

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122056376#Comment_122056376

The accessible way of playing competitions without a membership is Society Golf. It is not perfect but you get to play nice courses with buddies and competitiveness might be lower (before WHS handicap lunacy)..

If you want something more frequent joining a club is the next step and getting a WHS Handicap.

I know some will say it is different in England or US… England and US especially have a different relationship to golf than Ireland has… In Ireland it is much more an everyman sport… The cost (outside Dublin & select Links crown jewels) is relatively lower considering the quality of the courses on offer…

St. Patrick's Links is a top 50 course in the world and an Irish person can play it for 80 euro. The club placed behind it doesn't do green fees but cost $10k a year to be a member.. Nearest one was $391 a round and three places back.

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366260#Comment_121366260

Don't believe that is really enforced…

It would be so easy to rig as well… Even you Kerry Club don't care as long as they get three rounds from a club and it is proper…

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062785#Comment_122062785

The facts are the facts, a bitta reading would do you no harm it seems

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062371#Comment_122062371

Once a week half the year is 25

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060926#Comment_122060926

A simple "No I dont believe in facts I just like putting up unverifiable(that means cant be checked for the bottlefed like you) statements" would have done.

I dont need facts.I'm not the one stating something that I cant..or wont..verify as the truth.

blue note

When you look at the gap between the people who played golf last year and the number who are members of clubs, you can't deny that there's a huge amount of people that have an interest in the game. If there was a membership option that would suit them, they might get more involved. Which would only be good for our game.

I strongly feel that the traditional membership model doesn't best serve an enormous portion of the golfers in the country. The basic model used to be that you would pay a fairly hefty entrance fee to join a club, followed by fairly reasonable annual fees (assuming you're playing once a week). Back in the day, people settled down a lot younger than they do now. And they tended to settle into their careers far younger - a job for life was what most people looked for, so if you got into a bank or the civil service that was probably your career for life. And it follows on from there that even with a hefty joining fee, you could probably justify it because you're probably going to be in that club for life, so it's an upfront payment, but a cost you can spread over 40 years. Now, people are settling down later. In their 20s, I'd say most people aren't sure where they'll end up living for their lives, so paying a joining fee anywhere would be utterly daft. The result of this is that people of that age, even when they don't have kids so might have a bit more time, don't join a club because it just doesn't make sense for them. Then with modern life, things are expensive and there are more demands on your time than ever before. When I was growing up, my mother looked after the 4 kids (6 in summer) and got the dinner ready on a Sunday while my father played golf. Golfers getting agreement from their partners for that every week now is far less common. So even if a club isn't looking for a joining fee, it can still be hard to justify the membership fee.

The more casual golfers - people playing 12-15 times per year. I'd say most people here would have serious reservations about paying the annual subs if it was costing you €100 per round. You can look at it whatever way you like about what was available to you as opposed to what you used in the club, but if that's how often you're playing, maybe being a member of a club isn't a good idea for you with the current membership options available.

Now in fairness, there are more membership options available to people now than there were in the past - namely 5 day and pay and play in some courses, or 9 hole memberships. 5 days are an absolute waste of money if you work Monday to Friday and pay and play and 9 hole might not be available to you close to where you live. There are a hell of a lot of people like this and they're being missed by Golf Ireland. Will this new type of membership hoover up these guys? Probably not in my view. They still won't be able to play anywhere on a Sunday. A lot of people don't care about handicaps or competitions. It'll get a fair few people I'm sure, but I don't think golf clubs will notice the couple of members that they might lose to this.

Where there is some potential for this is tying in with societies. I wonder would it attract some of the more serious golf society guys out there. Societies can get fairly serious and some people would like to have a proper handicap. This could be the route for them.

But where I think there's an opportunity for golf clubs is offering different types of membership options to people. There are already guys leaving clubs every year because they play once a month and feel like they're subsidising the guys who play twice a week. And in fairness, they are. Clubs should be looking at how they're serving these guys. It's all well and good saying that it's their own fault for not using the membership more, but when you lose their subs the next year that's no good to you. I thought Castleknock had a great idea a few years ago when you had the option of buying credits (I don't know if they still offer it). The club got €1,500 in per member and it could be used for green fees, in the pro shop or in the bar. Towards the end of the year, if the member had hardly used it, I suspect some went in and bought a new driver or the like. They come out feeling like their membership wasn't wasted and the club gets the revenue.

But the fact that there are more people who played a round last year that weren't members of a club than were just shows me that there's a massive opportunity for golf in Ireland.

coillcam

I'm on the fence. Without actual data from other countries using this igolf scheme, it's hard to say but I'm seeing problems nonetheless.

We're lucky that we have courses everywhere and for the most part affordable-ish memberships. Try going to mainland europe or the US and see what it costs. Participation in Ireland relatively speaking is well up there vs any other country. It's not like we're leaving people behind. Other countries with fewer courses and higher costs could easily tap into a huge pool of "future golfers". When you consider the membership GAA has, it affects every other sport on the island in terms of participation.

Take the lads from work who can play society golf for less than €50 with a meal in a lot of places. No HC but they don't care and only want to play 5-6 times per year as they've no time. It wouldn't necessarily turn them into regular golfers or members BUT it might tickle them a bit more to play if they can enter the odd open day….

Clubs are already talking about rising costs and putting up memberships. If numbers of members drop off due to igolf being more attractive I'm not certain that they'll be replaced by other igolfers who now decide to lump on a full membership.

Ultimately I think we all see clubs limiting the tee times for igolf and increasing green fees/open days to make it less attractive.

srfc d16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058874#Comment_122058874

There are a few contradictory things here. If winter is a write off then you cannot play once every 2 weeks to get your 25 rounds a year. Anecdotally I genuinely don't think 25 rounds a year is low end based on myself and my friend group. If you are a member of a club you can see the end of year figures and decide if the club are "rip off merchants" or not. My yearly sub to a member owned club is over the 1500 mentioned but I can see the costs in the end of year acccounts and I don't see it as a rip off.

Mantis Toboggan

Do we know the pricing for this?

This sounds like it would be perfect for me, with 2 smallies I'm only interested in playing 10 -15 opens a year from April to October.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060920#Comment_122060920

i can read the facts myself, you can too, unless you are still being spoon fed

have you any facts yourself

spacecoyote

You can address the oversight issue by excluding them from competing in the same comps as members. Maybe run a separate comp with a prize defined by the number of non club golfers?

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060627#Comment_122060627

Oh right..I presumed..wrongly obviously..that as you made statements of fact you would have checked your facts beforehand and have the info handy.

Silly me for thinking people get their facts right before stating something.

😂😂😂😂😂

DiegoWorst

I think most regular club members value weekend club competitions, and thus won't be swayed by a cheaper iGolf alternative.
However, I can see how it would be attractive for some, and I would expect membership numbers to drop as a result of its introduction.

The issue I have with iGolf is the complete lack of oversight on a golfer's handicap. Every club golfer has his/her handicap reviewed by their home club at least once a year, most clubs run handicap reports and make adjustments throughout the year.

For instance, if a new golfer joins a club, and submits 3 cards for handicap: Most golf clubs are now geared to making adjustments to the new handicap index based on past golf experience or sporting history. I can't see this happening with iGolf subscribers.
If a golf club member wins a bunch of 4man team competitions, his home club will cut his handicap, I would expect the iGolf handicap to remain untouched.

I cannot see how a club golfer's handicap can be comparable to nomadic handicap. I don't think it is fair to pit them side-by-side in an open competition.

Russman

My gut reaction wuld have been totally against this, but I guess it'll be one of those things where the proof will be in the pudding. Who know whether it will go one way, and attract more people to join clubs, or the other way, and see members leaving. Personally I think the latter, but would love to be wrong. You see so many people nowadays viewing their golf sub more and more like a gym membership, rather than buying into the "club" thing. Obviously everyone has to make their decision based on their own situation, but even in my own club, which is as far from a wealthy, big size operation as you can get, I've heard chats about the fee divided by the number of games you get etc etc. Granted the very wet last 8/9 months hasn't helped of course. Guys are realising that, bar links courses, the inland golf season in Ireland is really only about 6 months, maybe 7, and wondering why they're paying €xxx, when you could play an open a week from April to September for half that if you had a handicap.

For me, the issue with access to golf is as much about how long a round takes as it is with cost. There's always cheap golf to be had somewhere. And I don't mean the slow play debate, I mean that its, at best, half a day gone at a weekend. People are under pressure at home, the partner wants you to be there to do x,y,z, or spend time with the kids or him/her etc - nothing bad about that at all, it just makes heading out for 6/7 hours on a Saturday/Sunday much more difficult. Even if golf was free, he/she might only be allowed to play golf once a month, so a membership is never going to be worth it. That's not ever going to change. Its like having a hilly course in the mountains, all the money in the world isn't going to make it flat and 500 feet lower.

The other thing, and I guess this would be location dependent, is if a club is seeing members leaving and/or seeing that opens are bringing in some revenue to offset that, could you see clubs running opens every day of the week and alienating existing members ?

I dunno, I can see both sides of it, and not 100% sure what I think of it really. Waiting lists are back with a lot of clubs in the last year or two, local clubs I know of have literally doubled their joining fees so some clubs are clearly not struggling to get members. They're hardly going to notice this, and they're hardly going want or need to put on extra opens to cater for these new golfers. Its the clubs operating on a shoestring and with volunteer work from the members that I can see being hurt from this. If you can't get into a "top" club purely because there's a waiting list, the problem isn't access, there's still clubs to join.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122059763#Comment_122059763

you can look them up yourself, same in ireland, same everywhere since covid

England golf do it

theres a version in scotland too

you can find out the details yourself

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058576#Comment_122058576

Where are the figures to show there are more club golfers in england than ever?

Those in england that use igolf are they ex members of golf clubs or not?

Who polices the igolf handicaps in england?

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058700#Comment_122058700

25 rounds is a low end, that's once every 2 weeks

if the membership is 1500 the green is higher

Green fees are higher at weekends

All the good slots for playing are blocked off if you aren't a member, it's hard enough to get out as one, as you can see by the constant giving out in this forum

Winter a write off

Most opens are weekdays, most are under subscribed because of it they need more outside players the more people play the more the purse the more in green fees

The only people to lose out are those who charge stupid green fees and offer a rare open fee for much less

And they are rip off merchants

awec

40 rounds a year at 25 is 1000 a year in green fees.

if membership is 1500 for example, what’s the incentive? Today you need to join to play any sort of competitive golf, so that’s the current incentive.

going forward it is only an issue if you really want to play on Sunday. Otherwise you can play competitive opens and keep that 500 in your pocket.