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Child Item

63A main panel fuse blows if power outage occurs

Irish Steve

As the title says, just had a call from my daughter, they've had issues at their house in Duleek with the main 63A fuse in the panel blowing when the power comes back on after an area failure, and then today, ESB were doing a significant upgrade in their area, so they were off for most of the day, and then when it did come back on, they had 3 fuses blow before the power stayed on.

There's nothing fancy like Solar or EV charging on the system, it's a basic 4 bed semi, and there's no out of the ordinary loads attached to the system.

There's nothing unusual about the house or the wiring that I'm aware of, and there's not any issues with any breakers or other trips dropping out at any time, but this issue has been happening for a while, we have heard a suggestion that it's related somehow to the upgrade to a smart meter that happened a while back, but I'm not convinced, if there was an issue of this nature, I'd have expected it to have shown up in places like this, but I've not seen any similar reports.

So, first, has anyone had any experience of a fault of this nature, and second, where to start in trying to find someone with some above average diagnostic skills to work out what's going on?

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Irish Steve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800625#Comment_121800625

indeed, I tried to get my head around it when it was being explained, but it defeated me, but apparently, whatever is causing it has been seen more than a few times now, which is why the ESB man said to give networks a call to get the meter changed, internally it is a well known issue, I can well believe that they're not shouting about it to even the trade, given the hassle that it causes, but if it means that normality is restored to the house, then I'm happy for now, and when we know the fuse issue is stable, that's when we get the rest of it checked out just in case, the ESB man was apparently very clear that there have been no faults found on the other places, it is something very strange, and I'd have to agree with that, 50 plus years of working with complex electronics and I can't see how an open circuit with no load connected can blow a large fuse, but that's what's been happening somehow.

tomhammer..

"I can't see how an open circuit with no load connected can blow a large fuse, but that's what's been happening somehow"

That's not been happening

It's simply not possible

Antenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800236#Comment_121800236

Yes, maybe a loose screw or nail or something other conductive debris has fallen in to the consumer unit through cable entry and is sometimes managing to short out across L and N or L and E.

Get someone remove cover of consumer unit and see if any such debris is there?

If the smart meter was to blame it would blow the ESB fuse, not the consumer fuse. Whoever suspected the meter has probably misunderstood which fuse is blowing.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801919#Comment_121801919

Without knowing the SM fault, then you can't say, with any degree of certainty.

If the smart meter was to blame it would blow the ESB fuse, not the consumer fuse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801647#Comment_121801647

Ditto, time to move on from its not possible

https://www.space.com/brightest-quasar-ever-powered-black-hole-solar-mass-accretion-disk#

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801960#Comment_121801960

So how would an open ended fuse operate then, supplied by a quasar perhaps?

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799601#Comment_121799601

A Presumption based on theories and probably through 20 people passing on stories. Strange things can happen with electrical systems for sure. But still astonishing an REC hears that, and thats it, problem solved without even looking, and concluding there cant be any fault in the installation.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804823#Comment_121804823

I don't believe a word of it

I'd be sceptical of that RECs competency

I didn't write off the smart meter tripping nearby RCDs because i don't understand the subject enough to do so

This seems more straightforward and "highly implausible"

Also the smart meter causing a downstream fuse inserted into an open-circuit to blow is "impossible" , assuming all circuits were actually open

Irish Steve

Guys, right now, I need to defend the REC that's been involved, and from the outset, I will say very clearly. he has NOT refused to come out and look at this, he has said that he was advised by his ESB friend who he was working with on a joint project at a medium voltage site that there was a known issue with smart meters from a specific manufacturer, and that until the meter had been checked out, and most likely exchanged, there was very little liklihood of finding a fault on this installation, so his position was very simple, he could indeed come out, but on the basis of the very clear advice he'd been given, it might be a non productive visit and not a good use of limited resources. I respect that.

No, I'm not a REC, simply because at nearly 73, I'm not likely to get approved by any of the certification bodies here in Ireland, and even if I could, the cost of the essential test gear and the mandatory insurances would mean I'd have to work all the hours of the day and night to pay for it all, and that's not where I'm at these days, I don't want to be chasing my tail all over the place any more.

I did all my training way before companies handed out a piece of paper to prove you'd been on a specific course, it was of course in your personnel record, and the brutal reality 50 years ago was that if you didn't achieve a reasonable standard during the course you were sent on, then your future with the company was likely to be under a cloud, or even terminated, I was working with a major company that was very well known for mechanical accounting machines, and 50 years ago, they started introducing electronic computing style sytems, and we had to both install and maintain them, and some of them used a lot of power in those days, and we had to do it without much of the sort of equipment that's taken for granted now.

50 years ago, the rules that applied to things like gas and electricity were very different, and as long as the inspector of the utility was happy with the tests they did when they came out to connect to their supply, they were happy, and you knew they could, and did, do specific checks, and more, when they came out, and there was no point in trying to pull the wool over their eyes, they knew very quickly how to recognise sub standard work, they could usually spot it within seconds of starting their checks, and they were very rarely wrong. I did all the gas work, and all the electical work on the house we bought, gutted and renovated, with no issues, and if the system here was not so anal, I'd probably have tried to become recognised 25 years ago when some of the more serious restrictions came in, but there were just too many petty restrictions that made it very hard to join what was becoming a very restrictive club, they wanted proof of courses attended, and that wasn't available, and in the end, it wasn't worth the fight.

When it was still legal, I did the electrical fit out of several bare shell retail units for my daughter, all of which were happily signed off by the ESB inspector, and some of the work here at my own home on the 3 phase systems that related to the computer area and standby generator were down to me, and signed off after a very detailed inspection by a senior manager from ESB Swords, he came out because automatic changeover generators were rare in a small user setting, so he wanted to see it first hand, and be absolutely certain that all the rules about ensuring no way to back feed up to 50KVa into the network were being completely complied with, and he was happy with what he saw, so I will say it as I see it, while I can't legally get involved with the single phase domestic stuff, that doesn't mean I don't know what's going on, and right now, what's happening in Duleek defies logic, but if someone from ESB gives us a specific pointer that suggests a specific issue with the meter, even though I don't fully understand the 'how', I'm not about to argue, I've done what we were asked to do, which is to get ESBN involved, and when I rang them yesterday, I didn't have to push too hard to get them to put it in to the sytem for checking, the call centre operative did put me on hold while he spoke with an adviser, and they didn't throw the issue out as impossible, so that's where we're at for now, and I don't know how long it will take, or what their exact plan is.

When I have specific news, I will update this thread, whatever the outcome.

meercat

Post a photo of the specific meter or inform us of the brand/model if possible for future reference.

im not surprised esbn take any reports of a fault seriously because if they don’t investigate and there is an issue and someone is hurt or a fire ,then they are liable

i think any competent rec would have called to test the installation to rule out any issues on the consumer side first though.

Appreciate you keeping us informed on the outcome either way

tomhammer..

6 main fuses blown recently i think he said ?

I wouldn't be hanging about .I'd be ringing round to get an inspection done

Cerco

IMHO if the meter is to blame then it must be generating significant voltage spikes when the power is switched back on after an outage.

Lenar3556

I think there is a Walter Mitty element at play here.

Buffman

I have to LOL at a long time Mod getting called a Walter! Even a quick Google shows it's not unheard of for 'smart' meters to be causing issues with fuses/RCDs.

Keep us updated Steve, be interesting to see how it pans out. 👍️

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802406#Comment_121802406

I am just saying that SMs are new so new thinking required rather than the old nail and tin foil solution!!

Keep well

Irish Steve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815312#Comment_121815312

Thats the plan, and I will update, regardless of how it pans out, it's way outside of anything I've seen or heard of, but stranger things have been seen over the years.

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815332#Comment_121815332

Well, a new line of thinking is certainly needed if a new type of meter can interrupt/operate a downstream 63A fuse which is (if we have switched all circuits off) open circuited, apart from a remotely possible DB flex link wiring problem.

And if all circuits are on, some serious thinking is needed to solve why a 63 amp fuse is blowing, while 10 amp mcbs etc connected to it, don't, if no faults in the installation are present.

Therefore, in my possibly uninformed methodology, I would be checking the wiring from the main fuse to the other areas of the DB as my first checks. Not simply dismissing it because the ESB says don't worry, it's simply the new type meter causing a new type of problem, and you won't find any other problem.

Of course, we might hear of some unusual almost unheard of reason that surprises those who analyse such things, and those that just accept what they are told is the reason, won't be surprised I'd guess.

But I'd still be doing the standard checks that cause blowing main fuses, if it was an installation I had anything to do with.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815312#Comment_121815312

What does google say ?

I'm open-minded on the smart meter tripping nearby RCD phenomenon atm .

The smart meter blowing main fuses theory

Everything I know tells me it didn't happen

Maybe it's the Russians or the Chinese attacking domestic electricity supplies😁

Cerco

No update yet from Op. I would have thought that ESBN would have been out to check the meter by now. Op, are they aware now that you have an issue and have they responded?

However if the meter was causing spikes , these may have damaged the consumer unit. This might explain the fuses blowing when the mcbs were switched off (I assume this includes the rcd). Therefore, as others have recommended, the board needs to be checked out. If your rec gives the board a clean bill of health then you will have good cause to start pursuing ESBN for an early resolution. All you have at the moment is a questionable rumour. I would have it checked for safety as well as peace of mind. Op you are clearly concerned about this so why wait till something else happens. The only action you can take straight away is to get the consumer unit/installation checked out.

Irish Steve

EsbN are aware, and supposed to be coming out to check, but as of now, they've not been to it, and I've had more than enough on my plate due to unrelated issues here with the OPW flood scheme that's been driving us to distraction recently, and as they're not having problems at the moment, it's not been a high priority.

If we don't hear back from EsbN in the next week or so, I suspect I'm going to end up calling them, to see what they are planning to do.

tomhammer..

You've suspended reality and are waiting on ESBN to fix this issue

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835899#Comment_121835899

You cannot change the laws of physics. :-)

I thought the ESBN would not make an appearance until the issue was checked by an electrician. I await their findings...

It takes a lot of current to instantly blow a 63A fuse, a good bit more than 63 amps.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815332#Comment_121815332

The smart meter blowing fuses is the nail and tin hat solution

Just saying for accuracy

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836042#Comment_121836042

If not a "short circuit" then a 60A fuse will take well over 80A for ever and 100A for ~ 17 minutes, if this chart is any way accurate.

MCB tripping curves as well below.

tomhammer..

Smart meters tripping rcds is apparently correct

Smart meters blowing 6 main fuses

10-10-20

@Irish Steve, did you make any progress with this interesting scenario?

Irish Steve

Unfortunately not, it's been crazy busy here at home here, with a lot of OPW work going on to finish the flood scheme (at last), and since the original couple of days with significant issues, there's been nothing happening on that front at all, no trips, no fuses blowing, it's gone back to the situation it was before the change to the supply, and I won't get chance to follow up with ESB until after Easter now, we're going away for a few days to visit family in the UK, and I don't want to rock the boat with them until I can spend the time on it that's needed, and review what they've found, it's possible they did monitor things without calling my daughter, nothing's been said recently.

tomhammer..

You're wasting your time following it up with esbn

I wouldn't have left it this long if it was me and 6 blown main fuses apparently