If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
No, your analogy is way off, nuts.
Firstly, people pay for radios and computers and medicine. Those that invent them have patents.
We are sponging off NATO. The thing with Russia is not of NATO's makings, it is of Russia's.
The delusion must stop, Ireland must stand up and take its place with the democracies of the world.
We are members of the NATO Partnership for Peace - we are not 'Neutral' but merely Militilary Non-Aligned - Back in the Cold War the USSR landed at Shannon en route to Cuba - now USAF is landing at Shannon en route to their wars - it's time we got them to pay for their landing strip like Iceland - they don't have an army or navy and they lease Keflavik base out to the USAF
NATO and Democracy do not belong in the one sentence.
All members of NATO are democratic countries.
Most countries that oppose NATO are not.
Pfp is something akin to being a subscriber to readers digest. Or an AA member.
Youll need a better argument than planes landing if you want to tie the country to the bag of mixed nuts and bullsht that is nato.
Not Turkey.
Right so how much did you pay for algebra.
Did your teacher buy a license to teach it. How much did you pay the estate of W Shakespere.
We all benefit and suffer from global changes.
Doesnt mean anything.
Can't see a good reason to join NATO at this time.
Very strange.
We are spongers off NATO.
I wouldn't go that far but we are woefully unprepared..
No we're not.
/Best panto voice
'Oh yes we are!'
Maybe there's another way...
Sounds like it may not be the best time to get the application form in just yet lads. Probably they have got the CCP and the Mullahs ready to attack also.
I do wonder about this country. We get some things very right and others? Not so much. There's a large hospital being built in Dublin at the moment, at the rate they're going it'll be built just in time for the centenary of the formation of the EU.
Anyway, the bit that grates with me is the national chant, 'we're neutral, we're neutral, we're neutral.' It has nothing to do with neutrality and everything to do with expense. We do not want to spend the money. Why do we have so many ships in the navy, not at sea? Tied up gathering dust? There was a big thing in the news a few years ago, the army couldn't get people. Why? Soldiers don't want to be paid 5 cents an hour and get shot at occasionally. In terms of neutrality, Sweden was neutral until it joined NATO. You'd want to be a bit daft to have a go at Sweden. Funny how a neutral country can produce some of the worlds finest fighter jets.
We've had US military personnel and militarily gear going through our 2nd biggest airport for years. We are most definitely not neutral.
Natos fanbois could at least wait til after u.s. elections to see if their club will be de facto led by an addled handsy octogenarian or a spray tanned wwe star with the temperment of a wasp left on hold.
Kind of a tough sell not even being able to say which of the two available lunatics we'll be tying the country to. If we're to buy into this bullsht.
Which we wont.
We won't join unless there is some action by Russia against us. Given that we haven't been attacked since Nato was created and the Russian navy has shown itself to be a paper tiger I doubt we will changing our position anytime soon.
Running out of coherence, I think.
And of arguments. It appears to me that the argument against NATO is extremely thin.
Obviously not or Ireland would be in it already.
In WWII we were neutral on the side of the Allies. We are sending non-lethal military assistance to Ukraine.
There's also the usage of airports. https://shannonwatch.org/
As I keep pointing out Article 42.7 is the EU's mutual defence clause and has been in force since 2009. Most of the countries that would come to our aid are in NATO so you'd have to explain how an adversary wouldn't draw the wrath of NATO in any conflict with the EU.
Our 2022 defence budget was €1.1Bn. Joining NATO means spending 2% of GDP more on an ongoing basis. Based on Q3 2022 that'd be nearly €10Bn a year.
And we'd be giving up a lot of soft power too by joining NATO. What's the DFA's view on this ?
Expanding our navy is a different story. Mainly because it would be self funding just by stopping illegal fishing.
There you go, we are sponging to the extent of around €8 bn a year.
So you want us to waste 8bn a year on defence. Where do you want the money to come from?
When we contribute money to the EU I wouldn't characterise countries that receive money as "sponging" from us.
How much is our soft power worth ?
We've been peacekeeping in the Lebanon since 1978. Irish Aid is probably the most cost effective government aid program around. If we joined NATO we'd lose most of our influence with non-aligned, non-OECD countries. ( EU membership is how we deal with the OECD )
What benefits are there to us being in NATO ? Because there are indirect financial costs too.
We export food to countries across the political spectrum. Irish exports to Middle East & Gulf hit €1.46 billion for first half of 2023
Look at the UK's "special relationship" with the US to get an idea how we'd be treated, but worse as we'd have almost no leverage.
Sweden and Finland were very confident on Article 42.7 working, that they didn't want to join NATO.
Denmark was so confident in nato that it joined EU common defense.
Its just the old 'national shame' angle.
Article 42.7 TEU is basically a straight lift of Article 51 of the UN Charter. It doesn’t amount to anything meaningful.
For instance, under Article 51 of the UN Charter, we have an “obligation of aid and assistance” to Israel. I doubt we have sent them a packet of plasters much less anything that could be classified as military aid.
Norway is in NATO and has a reputation on the international diplomatic stage every bit as good as Ireland's, if not better. (I'm trying to think of any peace treaties brokered by Ireland, Norway has a track record). As the Norwegian foreign minister (I think that's who she was) observed when she was speaking during the Public Consultation in Ireland, what other nations look at isn't your declared alliances, but how you act.
https://tacticsinstitute.com/fact-sheets/fact-sheet-norway-as-international-mediator/
