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Badly need a new Political Party

[Deleted User]

Ok so hear me out

Imagine a party with the exact policies of Sinn Fein but without the baggage of Sinn Fein!!

Sinn Fein I do really think they are trying to get as far from the IRA rubbish as they can. But they will always be held back by it. Look at their candidates. At the top they are quiet strong

Mary Lou, Louise, Eoin, Pearse - just for example. They are all decent candidates who are good talkers. Good at articulating an argument.

But when you start going down the pecking order you end up with people like Maurice Quinlivan and David Cullinane. Its like they are trying to get as many people in as possible and then end up with old mentality people who love the "up the Ra" songs. I feel like this will continue to hold them back. They need to start having some sort of behavior contracts or something to ensure everyone gets in line. I know that obviously opposition will always make reference to the security council, but I think this is an exaggeration tbf. Every party has their own party assembly who makes decisions on the party. But because of SF's past, it will always be held against them.

But if you look at things they say, its all pretty good. Their ideas have substance. Opposition will claim they are lying but at the end of the day, the opposition have lied to us. SF havent had a chance to yet. Will Sinn Fein screw us over? Maybe. But they havent had the chance yet. Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Greens, Labour have all screwed us over on a number of occasions.

If Sinn Fein where called ANYTHING ELSE and didnt have a historic connection to the IRA, they would easily be the most popular party (I know that currently SF are the most pop).

What do ye think?

Does Sinn Feins legacy actually hold them back?

DO they need to be more choosy with their selections?

Would another a duplicate party without their baggage be more popular or is their baggage something that attracts people?

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[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930915#Comment_121930915

Cool, so keep the 20% bracket as it is...€42k

Then you've a void til €50k, very generous.

1% increase on every €10k to €100k. So somebody earning €100k pays a marginal rate of 25% income tax?

Given that income tax generates an enormous share of annual tax receipts each year, where are you going to plug the gap?

another 2% on every 10k over that up to say 500k...how many people will this actually affect?

Back to your crayons I'm afraid. You've got worse financial literacy than Pearse Doherty.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930882#Comment_121930882

My mistake, I confused the 23% vat rate with the 20% income tax rate.

Now that’s corrected, anything constructive to add? Why do we only have 3 rigid tax bands? Surely the more you earn the more tax you pay on a sliding scale, without getting completely ripped off, would be better for everyone??

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930873#Comment_121930873

You certainly have plucked them off the top of your head, as there is no such thing as a 23% bracket

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930707#Comment_121930707

Mo money, mo problems.

Why not an increasing top level of tax?? Keep the 23% bracket as it is and then say after 50k, an extra 0.5-1% on every 10k over than up to 100k, another 2% on every 10k over that up to say 500k, and 5% on every 50k over that up to say a top rate of 41%??

Or something similar, I’ve just plucked these numbers off the top of my head. Why just a rigid 3 bands??

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930358#Comment_121930358

That same person pays most likely pays little in VAT or LPT compared to "the rich". Also probably doesn't pay much or any CGT. Possibly some CAT if they have an inheritance. Zero Corporation Tax.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930108#Comment_121930108

Luas was costed at €288 million in 1997 by the time it was completed in 2003 it had increased to €675million.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/expensive-late-and-unlinked-luas-is-off-track-1.356431

THE final bill for the country's most expensive piece of infrastructure has come in at a staggering €804m -- 50pc more than expected. Four years after the Dublin Port Tunnel opened, new figures show that the project ran €269m over budget from the original €535m price tag.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/port-tunnel-cost-804m-50pc-more-than-budget/26717361.html#:~:text=THE%20final%20bill%20for%20the,original%20%E2%82%AC535m%20price%20tag.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930605#Comment_121930605

Except she was getting abuse from the moment she got the job, as I said the thread was started because she had a baby, imagine that

The abuse continued to follow after that and was based on her been a woman,

Far more unsafe based on what?

KevMayo88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930564#Comment_121930564

Helen McEntee gets abuse because she is grossly incompetant in her brief, and under whose tenure Ireland has become a far more unsafe place in which to live. Her gender is completely irrelevant.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930455#Comment_121930455

See the abuse McEntee gets since the day she entered the Dail and majority is because she is a woman

When she had a child on boards they even had a thread for all the men to go onto it and abuse her for having a child, then claim it was t because she was having a child

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930455#Comment_121930455

Who exactly is laughing at male candidates who talk about their families?

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930434#Comment_121930434

The Soc Dems are the probably best friends NGO sector has in Leinster house so I chuckle at the claim the party isn't beholden to lobbyists

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930343#Comment_121930343

Jayus your doing your best to get me in trouble! 😝

As far as I know bearded men, with (and/or) tattoos and large biceps have yet to wear lipstick and dresses in the Dail. But maybe others are more informed.

When I think back to the ‘feminisation’ of SF it was shrewd and clever politically. I remember when SF was in that process. And I was talking to a fella who was “talking up”. All the female representatives SF had.

Says I “You know why that is?”

”Why?” says he.

I said “Because they look less likely that they would shoot you!”

—

In my view a new party would be smart to go for new female candidates. The electorate more trusting of them than males overall , the optics of the female quotas look good. Chat of “gender balance” can be spun. A female TD can definitely get more sympathy from the electorate especially if a mother with fairly young children. A male candidate could never talk about family/children the same way a female candidate can/does. He would be laughed at.

And if there is a female leader of a party there is always the chance that chat of first potential female Taoiseach can be spun.

zozimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930186#Comment_121930186

I'm a member of the party for about 6 years. I've heard your comments before and I often wonder how middle class we are when many of us were the first in our families to go into third level education and have worked all our lives for social improvement. I am working class and proud. I'm proud to pay tax and I want to see that its put to good use.

I think Ireland is the best place in the world to live... nearly. And it's that 'nearly' that motivated me to get into a political party. As a country we waste money doing things in the most inefficient way possible. Look at HAP, look at Health, look at how we build houses. Look at transport etc... We spend fortunes that line pockets instead of doing good.

What I'd say is hard to grasp is that the party is not trying to look like any other party or indeed to seem like politicians. If we go into government it will need to be with red lines clearly drawn and without a government whip. That way we stay true to our policy positions.

All decisions - budget and legislative, should be tested to ensure that they increase quality of life for people living in this republic. We don't care about civil war politics or partition politics, we aren't interested in lobbyists and pressure groups. In short we wand to do politics that doesn't look familiar. Politicians that aren't politicians.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930345#Comment_121930345

There's more to tax than income tax.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930096#Comment_121930096

It's a comment thrown out by people earning 30k or 40k a year who pay buttons all in tax. Ignore it.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930301#Comment_121930301

Excellent post.

"But the truth is politics is largely about optics. Sinn Fein has attempted to make itself look a bit softer than the old stereotypes of moustaches, beards, biceps and tattoos. By bringing in more lipstick and dresses."

But just to clarify, they are a party of the left but it's not the bearded tattooed muscled hardmen of 30 years ago turning up in the lipstick and dresses now is it?

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930236#Comment_121930236

I have never voted for SF in my life.

Geuze

@_Kaiser_

"What we need is the "None of the Above" party :

- Economically sensible, rewarding and supporting those who contribute (as opposed to bleeding them dry) with economic consequences for those who refuse to do so

- Investing in infrastructure and services rather than stripping and selling them off, but demanding efficiencies and accountability in State bodies and organisations.

- Socially liberal and tolerant but not afraid to call out the more extreme nonsense that is increasingly being pandered to in this country over the last few years.

- Open to immigration of those who want come legally and have needed skills to offer but hard on chancers or liars and ending the endless appeal system currently in place, but all only in sustainable numbers and where the benefits must be for the hosts (us) as well as the new arrivals.

- Hard on serious crime and supportive of Gardai who are trying to better things but intolerant of lazy or corrupt elements therein too.

- Works with the EU, the UK and others in support of common goals, but always with Ireland's interests first. Compromise and negotiation, not capitulation and subservience. Less concerned about needing validation or approval than doing what's right for our country and it's people.

... And so on. I think you get the general idea."

This is what FG should be.

gormdubhgorm

I can’t remember which poster said it but they were correct in saying that a new political party would just be a “rebrand” of choices that are already there.

But the truth is politics is largely about optics. Sinn Fein has attempted to make itself look a bit softer than the old stereotypes of moustaches, beards, biceps and tattoos. By bringing in more lipstick and dresses.

30 years ago who would have thought that Sinn Fein would be led from a woman from a “leafy suburb” of Dublin? Yet this same SF and PBP (lead by the very middle class Boyd-Barrett managed to tar the working class Joan Burton as the out of touch “establishment” a political hatchet job. One that the electorate fell for. All based on optics.

For someone to form a new political party, they have to seem fresh and have drive. Also having one policy that really connects with the electorate that can be explained simply, but is populist.

After that it is all political optics to draw in the middle ground, they have to sound different from the status quo, and look the part.

The problem with the old left party like Labour when they go into government with FG/FF they get branded as “establishment” and get minced in the later elections.

A new political party would not have that old baggage. A new party has to be seen as statesman like but with a slight edge. Different optics.

PBP were/are supposed to be be the new political party, just under 20 years old now.But they are just a party of “protest” a great crowd to have at marches, but how would they ever get in government?

PBP are in a lot of ways the party the OP talks of. SF without the overt Republicanism. The only slight difference is PBP are like a SF prior to the rebrand who would not appeal to the slightly more centrist electorate.

From wiki PBP are described by others as Trotskyist. But they prefer eco-socialist. The major difference between SF and PBP seem to be on Europe. PBP was pro-Brexit, and even the ROI leaving the EU . But it is not lost on me that SF used to be very anti-Europe about 30 years ago.

Unless PBP rebrands slightly taking some of their “hard edges” off they will never get the numbers from the electorate. And will forever be that novelty party who makes a lot of noise.

It just ends up as 4 seats wasted for “the left” as PBP will need a SF near majority to get in power.

Labour are heading towards 7 seats wasted on the left category. Because most in the electorate don’t really know what Labour stands for anymore. They are terrible at optics, they have no vibrancy.

The Social Democrats have a vibrancy that Labour lost. But is there any real difference between the two parties? Should Labour concede defeat and merge under the more appealing “optical rebrand” of the Social Democrats?

Could it be as simple as that? Maybe rope in a few “independents for change” while they are at it?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930109#Comment_121930109

😂😂😂

Point the finger and never accept any responsibility, that’s the Sinn Fein way isn’t it

You should really come up with a new one because it doesn’t work anymore

The “but but but FG/FF something something something” noise has gone on for years now and nobody has any time for it anymore, well apart from SF followers who swallow that nonsense

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929212#Comment_121929212

You clearly don't have a rashers about Irish political parties

The Soc Dems have almost nothing in common with SF

SF are largely a working class party where as the Soc Dems are just about the most middle class of all the parties along with the Greens

SF are ruthless pragmatists where as the Soc Dems are wishy washy liberals who care more about pronouns than bread and butter issues

I'm not a SF voter but they are a party for grown ups unlike the UCD student union outfit you compare them to

The nicest thing you can say about Holly Cairns crew is they are inoffensive but they aren't a serious option

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929742#Comment_121929742

They done a poll, can't find now. Anyway people said of course they wanted a United Ireland

The next question is the one SF and supporters like to ignore.

Do you want a United Ireland if you have to pay additional taxes, the resulting swing was huge with 80/90% saying no they don't.

It's a bit harsh to say nobody cares about a United Ireland but it is very close. Northern Ireland is peaceful now, it doesn't affect our day to day lives and getting lumbered with a load of taxes to pay for a United ireland is not what anyone wants.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929499#Comment_121929499

Why don't you talk to your own parents about what went on in Ireland under FF/FG's watch?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930018#Comment_121930018

You are aware of how many projects are ongoing every day in government?

Luas was on budget

You only get the flashy headlines about the ones that fail and fail spectacularily. Check etenders and you will see the millions of tenders launched by the government yearly

Port Tunnel: Cost overruns

While it is often claimed that the project went over budget, this is not actually the case. The tender price of €457 million was for construction only while the total project cost was approximately €752 million.

In September 2005, it was reported that NMI was launching a claim for an additional €300 million.[11] The council has stated that this claim will not be met and that the total project cost remains at €752 million.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929637#Comment_121929637

I still have the question how much do people want to "tax the rich"?

In the case the 200k is close to 50% on tax, ok maybe you can give contributions etc but that fpr a pension you can't get access to till you retire or other requirements.

So if you want to tax the person more then they are paying more tax out of their wages than they are earning? over 50% so why would they do it?

Plus you are talking about Doctors/consultants etc which we have a lack of and the answer is tax them more? the same people who can walk out the door tomorrow and get a job in any country in the World

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929742#Comment_121929742

100%, I’d vote for that party.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929499#Comment_121929499

Just wait til you hear about some of the stuff Michael Collins etc did. You’ll have no one to vote for.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121928323#Comment_121928323

Port Tunnel? How many times over have we paid for the toll roads?? Motorways? Luas? E-voting machines? Printer that didn’t fit into the Dail? Metro?

it’s not just one project, it seems to be pretty much every big project the government puts forward. There seems to be no financial oversight or consequence to overspend.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929742#Comment_121929742

Id vote for that party anyway!

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926171#Comment_121926171

This.. Especially the first 3 lines!

SF (or anything like them) would be a disaster for this country, particularly the "squeezed middle" who are already paying for far more than they get from this State under FFG.

SF's primary goal is a united Ireland and they think that voters here consider it a key if not top 3 issue. They don't! People here are more concerned about housing, the impact of the disastrous immigration policy on their communities, health care, the costs of living and increasingly the general level of waste, corruption and incompetence in not just the political arena but anything even connected to the State (RTE, HSE etc).

Ask 100 people on the street if they'd support a united Ireland and the majority will answer "of course!" But then ask them would they be prepared to pay higher taxes as a result of needing to support and integrate those counties , deal with the inevitable security issues that would arise (the hardliners are unlikely to just shrug, say "oh well!" and disappear), and pay for more TDs and the further dilution of their voice in the Dail as a result? I think the answers will change a fair bit!

The problem with the current arrangement is that the political establishment serves itself, the hangers-on (friends, family, the connected, NGOs and lobbyists) and outside interests (the EU and apparently anyone with a sad story) over and above the interests and needs of our country and its people.

The current Government is obsessed with social media crusading (the constant screeching about the "far-right" in a country that still has one of the most passive and lazy electorates in Europe, not to mention one that has seen massive socially liberal policy changes in the last 20 years), being the "best boys and girls in the class" for our European "friends", and letting a small group of ideologues that only 7% of those who bothered to turn out last time (the Greens) poison any other support that may have remained through their complete disconnect from reality.

We live in a society now where personalities and individuals are more important than their message or competence. People like Leo Varadkar, Helen McEntee, Roderic O'Gorman, Eamon Ryan, Catherine Martin, Micheal Martin, Darragh O'Brien and Simon Harris. All individuals who have failed in their respective briefs, who have alienated the public, and yet who are still in the job and rewarded for it - we're about to have a man who has never had a proper job in his life and failed in the political ones he has be elevated to Taoiseach!! If that alone doesn't show how badly broken the system is then nothing will.

But the alternatives are actually worse. SF for the reasons above (and that they would destroy FDI and investment), various degrees of left, or one-issue Independents more suited to county councils than national parliament in the majority of cases.

What we need is the "None of the Above" party :

- Economically sensible, rewarding and supporting those who contribute (as opposed to bleeding them dry) with economic consequences for those who refuse to do so

- Investing in infrastructure and services rather than stripping and selling them off, but demanding efficiencies and accountability in State bodies and organisations.

- Socially liberal and tolerant but not afraid to call out the more extreme nonsense that is increasingly being pandered to in this country over the last few years.

- Hard on serious crime and supportive of Gardai who are trying to better things but intolerant of lazy or corrupt elements therein too.

... And so on. I think you get the general idea.

Unfortunately such a party doesn't seem to exist. The Farmers Alliance is probably currently the closest but I think the name will put off many potential voters.

In my view though it's absolutely what this country is crying out for.