You say "we all understand that mobile internet is not the same as broadcasting" yet the recurrent suggestion is that mobile internet should replace FM broadcasting (and not DAB).
Has someone said that? Not on this thread I don't think. I know I certainly have not. The discussion is entirely focused on adding DAB to the mix.
Your second question isn't particularly relevant, there might be noone with millions of euro wanting to run a commercial national DAB multiplex but it doesn't matter, a small scale service wouldn't cost close to that amount and it is small-scale that I'm particularly interested in as a democratisation of radio and media.
And that's fine, that's the answer tbh. If you're a radio enthusiast who wants the technical challenge of getting a community DAB mux up and running in whatever locality, that's absolutely fine, and tbh, if you set it up tomorrow, I doubt the BAI will come kicking your door in.
But it will have zero listeners because most people in Ireland neither know nor care what DAB is, apart from that useless button on the car radio that doesn't seem to do anything. And that is what will require millions of euro, building public awareness and giving them content they actually want to listen to. People keep saying that DAB is cheaper than FM, which is technically correct, but it's utterly meaningless when there is zero public awareness and zero public interest in it - and there is no cheap way to fix that.
If you genuinely understand the radio industry, you'll know just how long it took, how much money was spent to get the UK to its current takeup of digital, and we have nothing like their economies of scale and we certainly don't have the unlimited resources of the BBC.
It's been claimed multiple times on this thread that there are people only dying to set up a nationwide DAB service and it has also been claimed by another poster that you personally have the money, technical knowledge and desire to do so. If you're now confirming that this is absolute nonsense, then that's all I was asking tbh.
So that leaves us with two options - either DAB remains a hobby horse for enthusiasts, or we squander millions of euro of taxpayer money on reanimating its corpse on a national level. It's not really a choice, is it?
Genuine question - have you yourself actually approached the BAI?
I'm particularly interested in as a democratisation of radio and media.
I'm particularly interested in as a
democratisation of radio and media
.
I don't mean to keep banging the same drum, but the internet has done this already. Anyone can set up a "radio" station, anyone can record a podcast, that can be accessed by anyone, anywhere in the world at any time. DAB can't compete with that.
Again, lots of people kept saying for twenty years that Betamax was better than VHS. Sometimes, it just doesn't matter.
why do you make up things that never happened?
i know each to their own and all that but it's a bit strange is it not?
yet you're posting in the thread, so you obviously do.
bit strange if nobody cares no?
Look at this lineup of stations on a small scale Mux up in Northern Ireland, This is the sort of pinnacle the BAI have denied us apparently 🤔 https://foyledab.com/our-clients
Except it's less of an "FM vs DAB" debate and more of a commentary on commercial radio eating its own tail because the powers that be won't let anyone else into the club - blocking DAB multiplex operators getting off the ground is a symptom of that. I get around it (the lack of choice) by way of streaming from satellite to the car, but it's fiddly enough that I'd have to set it in motion before setting out on a journey and not want to change the station en route
And with respect, I state that it is the BAI's fault because, frankly, it is as the 2009 Act places the responsibility for licencing multiplexes with them. I 'throw digs' at those who insist that Internet Streaming is the future when they so blithely ignore its limitations (especially for live radio transmission) and the severe infrastructure limitations across the island. You say "we all understand that mobile internet is not the same as broadcasting" yet the recurrent suggestion is that mobile internet should replace FM broadcasting (and not DAB). I'd suggest that internet streaming services (e.g. Spotify) are fine for "I want to listen to my particular music selection" scenarios when combined with "download for offline playback" and that's a battle no radio station is going to win because everyone has their own taste in music.
I'd suggest that downloading podcasts is also a pretty valid strategy for listening on the go, be that when out and about or in the car; that is an area where radio stations can compete but with difficulty when not offering something compelling.
I would not suggest that internet streaming replace live content transmission because it's just not suited to that, its just the wrong technology.
To your first question: Stations with (a content) licence to broadcast but which are unavailable in the area. Stations which could broadcast if they had a platform to broadcast upon (but which does not exist or expects an unreasonable amount of money). Your second question isn't particularly relevant, there might be noone with millions of euro wanting to run a commercial national DAB multiplex but it doesn't matter, a small scale service wouldn't cost close to that amount and it is small-scale that I'm particularly interested in as a democratisation of radio and media.
You would be correct on the part of "most people have all-you-can-eat data" (so that element is paid for) but: > Mobile networks have finite capacity both in terms of core network bandwidth and cellular capacity; too many people in the same space and performance drops like a stone to the point of being almost unuseable. > As listener numbers increase, so do the costs to the broadcaster. It's cheap enough now but it can quickly become prohibitive I do agree with your point on Spotify (see my point above) but it is an extra subscription; podcasts do range from free to subscription though We could end up in a situation where the only broadcaster left will be RTE, a bizarre and unfortunate state of affairs but one I won't cry over
I listen to most of my radio off the internet these days. Far more choice and no inane talk to melt my head.
Commericial broadcast radio is facing a very bleak future, in that context a DAB vs FM debate is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. In ten years time we will undoubtedly have fewer commercial broadcasters than now.
No one cares.
but the problem is that the regulator are preventing the use of the technology by refusing to give out licenses. while that problem exists/continues to be the case, everything else is irrelevant as whether there are or aren't individuals willing to use the technology, they can't do so as they will not be given a license to do so. your points are effectively similar to the pubs being the only ones able to sell alcohol and then claiming all you state about DAB against offlicenses and supermarkets. there is no valid reason for the regulator not to have a process in place and issue licenses, if nobody bothers then the FMERS Have nothing to worry about seeing as it will genuinely be a failure because the opportunity would actually be there and nobody took it up. lots of countries have come later to the party then the UK so we would not be some outlier either.
Why do some people still want to fight the battles of 40 years ago? DAB & LW 252 are 500 million miles away from being relevant to the Irish population but you'd swear they were both daily water cooler topics in every workplace the way they keep coming up around here 🤷
It has but it is absolutely not a solution that scales and is not a solution folks should be seeking; why do you want to pay to receive something you get for free?
Most people have all-you-can-eat data already, or at least a cap big enough they don't ever have to worry about it, so it is free as in already paid for.
Spotify, podcasts, etc. etc. are eating very significantly into the available audience for live broadcast radio (whether that broadcast is on FM, DAB, satellite or internet…) and broadcast radio doesn't do itself any favours with intrusive advertising, "competitions" which are really ads, annoying presenters, repetitive playlists, etc. People increasingly are choosing to listen to what they want to have rather than what they are given.
We already can't generate enough advertising / sponsorship to fill the FM band anywhere in Ireland and the commercial outlook for broadcast radio is getting worse not better.
I know of several individuals who would like to run a DAB multiplex in Ireland at a local, regional or national level
With respect, you're not answering the fundamental question. you're just blithely repeating the same tired cliche that it's all the BAI's fault and throwing digs at those of us who think DAB's ship has sailed. You keep fixating on the actual technology needed but you're ignoring whether anyone actually wants to do this or (far more importantly) whether the public either needs or wants it.
We all understand that mobile internet is not the same as broadcasting. It's pretty irrelevant when everyone has a mobile in their pocket that can pick up 5G but not FM or DAB. It's like arguing for Betamax over VHS, the war is over.
The viability of community run DAB in the UK is totally underpinned by the commercial and BBC DAB services. That just isn't the case here.
So two questions:
If you got a licence to set up a DAB mux tomorrow, what content would be on this service?
What individual do you know who is in a position not only to set up a national DAB service but to put the resources behind it to make it a commercial success? And by resources, I mean millions of euros.
No, different radio frequencies, VHF propagates better than the upper-UHF/L/S bands used by mobile operators.
I wasn't suggesting they use the same frequencies. You took a single sentence completely out of context.
32k Opus is surprisingly reasonable and I've left a stream running at 40k by mistake and didn't notice it until it wouldn't play on something that only supported mp3 and AAC.
But DAB does not support Opus; and we're never going to get a v3 standard that does (and needs new radios, again) most likely
It is relevant, the facts on the ground are: The BCI/BAI/CnaM (under the Broadcasting Act of 2009) are the only entity that can issue a licence to operate a DAB (or DTT) multiplex here. They have stated politely that they do not have any current intent to licence DAB or DTT multiplexes now or in the near future, they are keeping it in mind along with other methods including internet based delivery (though that's currently outside their remit) I know of several individuals who would like to run a DAB multiplex in Ireland at a local, regional or national level and all of them have been denied a licence with (I presume) the same explanation; and other individuals are far more connected with the commercial radio sector than I am and better placed than I am We are being told, we cannot get a licence and on top of that we are dismissed with ignorant hand-waving and amusing deference to streaming services which are flat out not an alternative to broadcasting.
There are more than one, it has been something I've been trying to do since 2009 and the cost isn't nearly as outrageous as some have presented it. With the technical ability you can build your own and this has been demonstrated here on four different occasions.
None of that is needed nor a precursor to being able to get a DAB service on the air in Ireland. Neither is it required as a prerequisite for a licence for DAB (or DTT). It is something that should have been pushed by RTE/2RN with their existing stations plus TodayFM and any station currently broadcasting on Saorview. With the spectrum being empty and unused, it wouldn't have killed the powers that be to allow someone interested in getting something on air at a local/regional level the opportunity to make a go of it. In the UK a lot of the Small-Scale DAB services are run by Community stations
If you want to be nit-picky, you can get away with 32kbit for stereo if using High-Efficiency AAC but you want at least 48kbit to sound reasonable.
Is it not the case that the places which don't have internet coverage are very likely the places that don't have DAB coverage either?
And assuming we're talking about the Scottish highlands and the valleys of Wales, these aren't the places where the Irish congregated in large numbers.
So no, it would not be a good use of Irish taxpayer money.
yes back in 2000.
people expect higher quality audio these days even for talk radio, and of course rte has music programming as well.
Pull the other one. You only need tens of kbit/s for talk radio.
plenty of parts of the uk don't have internet reliable enough to receive reasonable quality streams so for many won't be an option.
…and, y'know, the internet has been invented…
I don't think they'll join, but, not because the Irish community is shrinking…. it's because RTE would be garbage compared to the majority of UK channels.
They're on Sky over there anyway to calm any home cravings.
It would need specific state funding, Diaspora department or whatever, to happen.
realistically only RTE are likely to know that answer.
my personal opinion is that they won't join, because as time goes on the irish community in the UK will get smaller and smaller due to various factors.
I would disagree on your forth point, that none of them will be cheap. DAB+ is actually cheap, transmission cost is very low, for instance and it is not a fantasy.
Even a heavily regulated and strongly monopolistic radio market like Austria introduced DAB+ ( broadcasting was strictly state run only until 1995 and real commercial radio didn't take off until 1998) and there are now even more stations on DAB+ to come.
Belgium is one of the next countries considering switching FM off by 2031, or at least they have communicated the conditions for that happening.
So why can't Ireland? After all Northern Ireland has DAB / DAB+. I think in Ireland it's only down to small or old minds and endless resistance to change.
With the passage of the radio deregulation bill over in the UK, posters on radio forums over there are wondering if RTE will still be interested in going on DAB in Britain ?
For DAB to succeed - and properly succeed- in Ireland we need three things
Not one of those is already in place and not one of them will come cheap. You’re not talking millions, you’re talking tens of millions.
This is a multi year, phenomenally expensive project with a very low probability of turning a profit. Some lad who knows how to set up a transmitter is absolutely no value here unless he’s got huge backing behind him.
But that’s what is being claimed here, that this guy can indeed finance the whole thing. It’s insanity and fantasy rather than any grasp on reality.
I did say technical ability.
Financially?
I’d be amazed but should point out that
a. If you’re spending ‘tens of millions’ then you’re doing it wrong
and
b. The poster you’re referring to has 45 years of broadcast engineering background, including building transmission infrastructure all over Europe so I suspect he may have a better grasp of the costs than me or you.
I also think the DAB ship has long sailed out of Ireland.
this is not the gotcha you seem to think it is unfortunately for you.
you will need to do way way better with me, i'm afraid.
Yeah, you’re right.
I rode Beyoncé last night btw, and since you can’t disprove it, it must be true, no matter how outlandish and stupid it might sound.
it's non-bolox i'm afraid, as if it was bolox you would be able to prove it so.
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