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Another "migrating from sky" thread.

ArrBee

After years thinking about it I am finally motiovated to get rid of sky.

Our usage is mostly the free channels so I am thinking the solution will be a combibox with record but I will look into specifics about brands at a later stage. For now it would be sufficient to know that what I want to do is possible etc.

I've done a bit of testing in house along with looking at supplier websites to try and understand what options for feeding signals there are and I think I am at the stage where I need to pop into a "shop" and talk about the options and start buying bits.

Q.1 Are there suppliers of gear that have some kind of showroom or someone to talk to about stuff? I rang one close to me in the midlands and was told "No fill in a support form on the web".

Q.2 Which shops would be recommend as being good at discussing options?

I'm trying to avoid the buying of stauff that doesn't work the way I think it does. Also, I'd ideally like to se some of the boxes running to chose something that passes the wife test.

Failing that,

I've got an existing sky+HD box. The LNB is J4LS with 2 feeds going to the attic where they are spliced into the original antenna feed and down to the TV. The antenna is also still in place and feeds to the same place in the attic. I also have multiple CAT6 runs going to a patch pannel. At the TV there is 2 seperate runs.

I've tested the antenna and it pics up Saorview no bother. I also tested the sat feed into an "old" skybox and could get the free channels fine.

Some of my questions are around ways to get both the sat and the antenna signals down to the TV without running a new coax cable.

-Would I be best to centralise the receiver(s) and distribute over the network? what products would I need? what are pros and cons?

-I see products that look like they stack/unstake a sat+antenna signal down a singal coax cable.... Do they work well?

-Another product looks like it might split a sat feed?? do they work well? Can I combine this with unstacking a sat feed (above)?

-could I potentially stack sat+antenna down one coax, then unstack it and split it to allow simultaneous connection to existing sky + any new setup I am testing.

-what are the limits of splitting a sat signal? .eg. if I split a single sat signal can that feed the 2 tuners in a box to allow recording 2 channels?

General STB questions:

I understand that a combi box will provide a single EPG and I will have to get a recording model.

-Are all EPGs 7 day ones or do I need to be careful to make sure?

-do these boxes provide a series link function?

-do any allow for more than 2 sat tuners?

-do any allow the installation of apps/addons? maybe netflix or iPlayer etc, or even Kodi or some of the IPTV solutions? - or would I need a seperate solution for that?

Sorry for the long post, Iv'e tried working out a good bit on my own but now I need the expertise of someone who has "been there, done that"!

Cheers

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Gerry Wicklow

The most popular box here is the Zgemma H7S which uses the Enigma II flavour of Linux. Other, cheaper boxes may have limited EPG and recording functions. There are also much more expensive boxes but it is hard to justify the extra cost IMO. The Zgemma has full 7 day EPG, series linking, live pause and a combined EPG listing with any mix of satellite and Saorview you like. These boxes are NOT Plug n Play and do need a bit of setup but it is easy enough if you are PC competent.

You can not split satellite signals among tuners without specialised equipment. However it is simple to "piggyback" a Saorview signal onto an existing satellite coax and extract it again at the TV. This is the most basic unit for that. There is a very slight loss in Saorview signal strength but if you have a half-way decent signal to start with you shouldn't notice a difference. There should be a function to check your existing signal strength in your TV.

There are some addons like Kodi but have heard mixed reports on their performance. Things like Netflix are not available for legal reasons.

A feature of the Enigma software mentioned above is the ability to stream both live and recordings to any device on your home network. This uses a builtin function called WEBIF. This also allows you to set timers, view the EPG, arrange channels etc etc from any device with a web browser on your home network.

You can also watch movies from a NAS or external file source. The Enigma recordings are not encrypted so you can save or share them for later use.

Thanks to Brexit, you may find Amazon.DE as the easiest source for a Zgemma H7S although this UK company is doing a discount just now. It needs a standard 2.5" HDD or SSD for recording. You may already have a spare from a laptop.

I hope that answers some of your questions. Feel free to ask more if needed and someone here will gladly try to help.

The Cush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058339329/another-migrating-from-sky-thread

Can't help you with shops or boxes, there's already a thread here somewhere on those.

Regarding splitting and combining feeds, you cannot split a satellite feeds directly.

You can piggyback a terrestrial feed down a satellite cable by combining at one end and splitting again at the other as both sets of frequencies are at different parts of the spectrum. This can be done with a simple combiner/splitter at each end of the cable.

To feed multi outputs around the house a multiswitch would be required, combining both satellite and terrestrial feeds down a single cable, but 4 feeds are required from a standard LNB on the dish or 2 feeds from a wideband LNB on the dish.

ArrBee

Thanks guys!

I think I read that a SAT splitter was available, but it wasn't really for simultaneous use. Would that be right? e.g. for moving a receiver between rooms or something.

The idea of using the receiver to serve up the rest of the network is interesting... is it only the Zgemma H7S doing this? how does that work - any client side software required or is it via a browser only?

I'm guessing that the 2x Sat + 1x TV inputs would mean that there are only 2 sat feeds + 1 TV feed available at any time. A recording would take up a feed. So there could easily be "contention" if sharing the receiver over the network, right? is there a way around this?

The 4 feeds from LNB equal to 2x wideband is interesting.... I'm guessing I could do something like:

-upgrade LNB (or keep it at the current 4) and load up a multi switch and make sure each cable run had a combined sat+terrestrial signal and then splitt the signal at device.

I am happy to pay the price of an H7S but will be interested in anything that might be better. I read somewhere that VU+ was good?? Any idea if there is the same functionality?

I think I need to get a pair of combiner/splitter yolks and play around using the built in TV tuners while deciding on a STB model.

If only I could get the TV to recognise the USB drive!

The Cush

Basic aerial/satellite splitter/combiner here https://www.freetv.ie/tv-aerial-and-satellite-combiner/

I don't what you mean by the splitter, mentioned in the first paragraph. Can you link to one?

Gerry Wicklow

Network sharing using the WEBIF web interface is part of the Enigma II software and is available to anything with a browser. You simply enter the box network address into the browser 192.168.xxx.xxx

VU+ and Gigablue are other makes of box. They are better build quality but don't offer much more functionality and are a good bit more expensive.

Satellite TV uses 4 different frequency bands. The box sends a control signal up to the LNB to select the reqd frequency. If you tried to split it across 2 tuners, they would fight for control. You are correct in thinking that recording or streaming would occupy a tuner but you would still be able to access other channels on the same frequency band. A more likely issue is with the single Saorview tuner because of how RTÉ split the signals. For example, If you were recording RTÉ1 you cannot access RTÉ2 at the same time. In this scenario a simple workaround would be to record one on the box while watching the other using the TVs Saorview tuner.

Multiswitches take 5 inputs. Four from a quad LNB (one for each satellite freq) and a terrestrial signal and makes these available to all the outputs. They come with various numbers of outputs as needed. You use a splitter or splitter wallplate to extract the terrestrial signal from the satellite coax at the receiver or TV.

TVs sometimes use the Linux EXT4 format for USBs which might be why yours is not recognising them. Often you have to format the USB on the TV first.

ArrBee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871316#Comment_121871316

Something like this??

https://www.satworld.ie/2-way-powerpass-outdoor-splitter-revez.html

Previously I thought I found something else but cant find it again now....

Interestingly, I just noticed the below product for stacking 2 sat feeds...

https://www.freetv.ie/stacker-destacker/

ArrBee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871434#Comment_121871434

I think I am going to re-read the bit about the 4 bands to get my head around it! I might come back about that once I've digested it a bit more. :)

The TV identified my USB sticks but would not format them (I think they were too small). The TV mentions a minimum size of 160GB and I only had 128GB available. When trying a HDD in a portable enclosure it wasn't even recognised by the TV to be able to attempt a format. Probably something to do with the controller inside the enclosure. Anyway, I never saw the TV as a viable long term solution. more so something to test without having to buy too much gear.

So what I am understanding so far is that I can add on the functionality (in terms of cable distribution) as my needs change. I shouldn't get too hung up on anything more than what I need right now.

Do the VU+ and Gigablue run Enigma2?

dam099

If you were to get the Vu+ or Gigablue which have FBC (Full Band) Satellite Tuners another option would be a Unicable LNB allowing you to tune 8 satellite channels simultaneously. Unicable feeds can also be split easily to feed more boxes if you need as you tell each box which frequency slot(s) to use. You can also use Unicable with legacy satellite tuners.

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B084662RQ1/ref%3Dppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The Gigablue used to be a great option (I have one) as you could get a dual terrestrial tuner which in Ireland allows you to tune all the Saorview channels simultaneously as well as only 2 muxes are used. Unfortunately their terrestrial tuners seem to be out of stock permanently, you could potentially use USB ones though.

Vu+ and Gigablue both use Engima2.

If you use Openvix you could buy cheap one tuner receivers and if connected to the network use them in client mode where they use the tuners on your main box instead of their built in one.

If your TV has an app store check if they have any IPTV apps available, you can download a playlist from Webif and upload to an IPTV app to stream channels from you main box.

The Cush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872175#Comment_121872175

The first one is a DiSEqC switch to feed a single receiver from 2 LNBs or dishes, switching between channels on different LNBs is done via DiSEqC switching commands from the receiver.

The second one is a blast from the past, stacker/destacker, allows 2 separate feeds down a single cable by shifting one LNB feed higher up the frequency range. The single cable has to be high quality because of the higher frequency, otherwise reception of the higher frequency feed could be affected.

Haven't used a stacker previously but they probably work ok.

ArrBee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872622#Comment_121872622

I like the idea of cheap single tuner receivers on the network as a client to a "main" box.

Would serving up the channels (and recordings) be a feature of Zgemma as well? I guess these FBC tuners would be more useful if client boxes were in the setup... would the client receiver be able to setup and edit recordings on the main box?

I feel like I've a bit of a gap in understanding around the bands and channels that would be available to me with my current set up or with some changes.. I think I get the idea that there is 4? bands that get used between the Sat and a dish. I assume that each band has a bunch of channels that are transmitted and in some cases a channel might be transmitted of more than 1 band on a given satellite?

If I have an existing sky+ dish with 2 feeds from the J4LS LNB going into a single FBC tuner, my understanding is that I could record 8 channels as long as those channels are withing 2 of the 4 bands. or have I got that wrong?

If I upgrade to Unicable I understand that I could record 8 channels regardless of which band they were on? Can existing cable handle unicable or would I need to replace it?

I am assuming that my dish will be pointing at a single satellite that happens to transmit free to air along with Sky. So anytrhing on that satellite which is unscrabbled is available to receive? Is there a list somewhere of what is available and the band that it is transmitting on?

Any other satellites that are "reachable" with similar (but maybe better) UK content?

Sorry for all the questions. I feel like I'm probably assuming some things that might not be right but it is taking me an age to sift through stuff online and piece it together!!

Cheers

ArrBee

I guess I am looking at Zgemma, Vu+, and gigablue (but needs to have terrestrial so does that rule out gigablue?)

Would there be much in the difference in performance wrt add-ons like IPTV, Kodi, other streaming clients? I'm assuming they run the same software so the same addons should be available for each....?

Cheers

dam099

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121880701#Comment_121880701

I would expect Zgemma could serve up the channels too, Openvix once it runs on a particular make runs the same (other than hardware might limit the number of streams you can support). You would also be limited in how many channels you can serve by the tuners if not FBC.

To be honest I usually only stream to one other TV so max usage is perhaps 3 tuners on the odd occasion (1 recording + 1 local watch + 1 streamed watch).

When I set up first though I did test that scenario + another 3 IPTV streams and it seemed to handle it fine (albeit with a short lag on the IPTV streams in particular, the remote Openvix box seemed to stream with less lag but it wasn't a scientific test).

Its not just the upgrade to Unicable that enables you to record 8 channels its a combination of a Unicable LNB with 8 (or more slots) and a tuner that is FBC with 8 demodulators. Unicable can also be used with many recent regular single/dual tuner boxes as well so you can have 1 cable from the dish that splits to multiple locations.

Unicable will work with a regular cable as long as its of decent quality, I replaced a regular LNB with a Unicable one and reused the same cable. I also combined Unicable and Terrestrial down the same cable with a diplexer.

For a fixed dish the vast majority of English language (including FTA) channels are on 28.2, you can see a list of channels + frequencies at

https://www.lyngsat.com/Astra-2E-2F-2G.html

I dont think recordings set on the remote box replicate over to the main one but I dont use a hard drive in either, both are pointed at the same NAS drive so recordings are available to both regardless of where I set them. If you dont have a NAS you could probably share the main box hard drive as a network share and point the remote box to it (I dont have personal experience of that but I believe it can be done).

ArrBee

Super helpful. Thank you.

I do have a nas, and was wondering if it needed to be iSCSI or just a share to mount over the network. Sounds like a good easy way of doing things...

Other than recording, What else might I use local storage for it can I do without it and just use the nas? I assume 1Gb network isn't a bottleneck?

I temporarily connected 1 sat fed to the built in TV tuner to see what came up and it covers most of way we use. So looks good.

I think I'll go ahead and order the zgemma from world of sat with no HDD to keep it under 150e and order an SSD later if I need one...

You guys have been a great help.

Thank you

Gerry Wicklow

You can remotely access HDD recordings on the box by using the webif function from any device with a web browser on the same network.

ArrBee

@Gerry Wicklow Yeah, I got that from a previous comment. I was wondering though if I had the main box in a comms rack loaded up with tuners and disk space, could client boxes setup recordings (on the main box), or edit existing schedules.

I get now, that with a NAS share, I can do most of what I was thinking about.

One last question (hopefully) before I order....

On the TV, I noticed that compression artifacts were more noticable than thjrough the sky box - which got me thinking...

Are some brands or models better than others at cleaning up the picture? Is the H7S decent in this regard (at least as good as sky+HD box)

Cheers

Gerry Wicklow

OK pictures paint 1000 words. This is an example of my "favourites" as seen on the WEBIF function. Note the many subheadings available on the left hand side. Clicking the screen icon beside a channel name streams that channel to the device you are on. The other highlighted icon opens the detailed 7 day EPG for that channel.

Inside the detailed EPG are icons to ADD a timer, EDIT an existing timer which would be flagged in red, or ADD an Autotimer (series linking)

Next is an example of an "autotimer" the equivalent of series linking.

Next the "Movies" section where recordings are kept. In this example I just happen to have an MP4 and MKV file. Recordings made by the box are the generic .TS format. Again the screen icon streams that file to the device you are using or you can download the file to this device or make it play on the main TV connected to the box. TS recordings are not compressed so the quality is whatever was broadcast.

ArrBee

Thats awsome. So via the webif I can remotely alter the recording schedules.

👍️

Gerry Wicklow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887546#Comment_121887546

yeah and much much more. Obviously you can do all that direct on the box with the appropriate remote buttons too. Here we are just exploring the networked side of it.

Likewise things like autotimers are far more versatile than pure series linking.

Gerry Wicklow

...

ArrBee

I ordered one today!

I took a look behind the face plate for the 2 sat feeds and found a 3rd coax sitting there!

Looks like I won't need to combine the Saorview with a sat signal. I just need to trace the cable and connect it to the UHF feed.

ArrBee

So....

Iv'e had it a week now and I'm slowly working through trying to get it to do what I want. Its a big hard with the family still wanting the skybox to work, I'm constantly looking for time to swap the sat cables over and back!

So far I've managed to work out adding storage local and CIFS share (Not the most intuitive config!), change the skin to a Sky copy (It's a pity the remote doesnt work the same), set up a new Bouquet with a selection of combined Sat and Saorview.

But, I've a load more questions about how to get it setup how I want.

Would this be the best thread to ask such questions or am I better of on those multipage threads that have been going for years??

2 immediate issues I have are:

the terrestrial reception seems poor in comparison to the built in TV tuner. I've more testing to do like swaping cables etc, but if I split the signal at the wall and feed both TV and H7S, the TV is perfect but the Zgemma is perfect on 50% of the channels (RTE1, Challange, most of the +1s) but RTE2, TG4 and others are plagued by artifacts. Should I expect the Zgemma tuner to be as good as the TV, or are they known to be inferior?
I can't, for the life of me, get the network streaming to work from the WebIf. I've tried with a couple of browsers on Android and Windows and in VLC. Is this a common issue with a simple solution?

p.s. I wish there was an spelling autocorrect in here.... :P

Gerry Wicklow

In WEBIF when you click on the small screen like icon beside a channel name or a movie file, what actually happens is the box sends an M3U8 file to the browser. This is a common playlist file format with the appropriate link info. It would seem that you need to make the file association on the device so it knows to open them with VLC or whatever player it uses.

For example if I clicked on RTÉ News WEBIF sends "RTÉ News.m3u8" to the browser. This a tiny plain text file. Exact details will be different on your setup

#EXTM3U 
#EXTVLCOPT:http-reconnect=true 
#EXTINF:-1,RTÉ News
#EXTVLCOPT:program=1105
http://192.168.1.125:8001/1:0:16:451:3E9:2174:EEEE0000:0:0:0:

ArrBee

Yeah. In windows, it downloads and I can open the file in either Winamp (yes, I still use Winamp!) or VLC

I have a feeling it will be the port causing the problem.... It's given me an area to focus on.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924968#Comment_121924968

What sort of aerial have you got for terrestrial? Saorview recommend using an outside aerial. A perfect picture does not tell you whether you have a strong or a marginal signal. You should have a menu with the signal readings. RTE 1 and 2 are on two different channel numbers / frequencies. RTE 1 is on Multiplex (Mux) 2, and RTE 2 is on Mux 1 from each transmitter.

https://2rn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2RN-DTT-Television-Transmission-Network-Sept-2019-Rev.1.2.pdf

Aerial

Over 98% of Irish homes can receive Saorview through a rooftop or external antenna, in certain good reception areas a set top antenna may suffice, however for reliable reception 2rn always recommend the use of an external or rooftop antenna.

ArrBee

It's an external aerial that was on the house when we moved in 10yr ago. This is the 1st time using it.

The cable goes from aerial to powered splitter then around the house. Right now though, I have disconnected the powered splitter and have 1 cable run connected to the aerial feed which terminates at the wall mounted faceplate. there, I run a short way to the H7s. This is also where I use a passive splitter with the same reults.

the different Mux could eplain the performance difference between channels, but not the difference between devices??? Again, the TV tuner is perfect for RTE2, the H7s is not.

I'll look for signal readings when I get a chance. I'll also tryconnecting the H7s closer to the aerial (taking about 15m of cable out of the equation)

I'm guessing though, that the Zgemma is NOT known for having a poor terrestrial tuner....?

dam099

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925984#Comment_121925984

Does the Zgemma work better if you take the passive splitter out temporarily? Might be signal loss from the split.

ArrBee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926517#Comment_121926517

No.

I only put the splitter in after noticing an issue.

But this afternoon I have found that it is not the tuner per se. Moving the box closer to the aerial does make the problem go away! I took some pics of the signal reading and will compare to when it is plugged in at the end of the longer cable run...

Also, I seem to have got the streaming partially sorted... I had messed with the port for streaming. Putting it back to 8001 now works for VLC on windows. but not the HD channels?!

ArrBee

A bit of extra mucking around last night and I have a couple f bits sorted.

The reception issue is solved. There was a poorly seated connection.

The streaming is mostly working now. Mostly.

I see there is a limitation that for saorview, the box can't do a mix of channels from both Mux1 &2.
I can open most saorview streams in VLC on both phone and PC.
1. are there other client players that I should consider?
2. When the box is playing RTE1-HD, I still can't seem to stream RTE1-HD. I can stream RTE1+1 though??? basically I don't think I can stream any saorview HD.

Is there a limitation around streaming HD?

I haven't tried streaming Sat yet as it's still connected to sky.

Will it be possible to set up on demand (legit IPTV) for RTE, More4, Virgin, etc??

andy1249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929895#Comment_121929895

No limit on streaming HD or any other channel.

I use either Kodi with Enigma2 plugin , or Plex DTV pointed at the tuner ( you need a plex pass so not free ... I have a lifetime pass )

With both , I get a full 7 day EPG for all channels.

Often , Multiple concurrent streams are happening in my house with no issues.

Is your network up to scratch , i.e. gigabit etc.

Also note , you must have a free tuner available for each stream.

If the box is busy watching one channel and recording others , then you may have no free tuner for the stream.

Gerry Wicklow

I've been able to stream and record multiple HDs at once without any issue. The only time I had problems was when I originally tried using a WiFi dongle from the box. Even though it said it had the bandwidth, in practice it was crud. Wired is the best way to go.

And yes, the downside of Saorview is you can only tune one mux at a time. You can try splitting the feed to use the TVs tuner if the box is busy streaming or recording the other mux. USB terrestrial tuners are also available but I never tried one so cant advise further on that. Also consider, quite often the show on Saorview may be simultaneously broadcast on satellite. E.G. Eastenders or Corry