Old thread seems to be permanently locked. It will be interesting if anything can come of this at last.
Threadbanned Posters:
The deliberate removal of records from a critical part of the investigation cannot simply be dismissed as being "unfortunate but down to mismanagement and frankly incompetence".
The Bandon tapes clearly show that Marie Farrell and some of the gardai had more than a 'professional' relationship. They were on very friendly terms with Marie which of course raises questions as to how this unprofessional relationship with Marie began.
The main thing that can be gleaned from that is that there was no high level corruption or coercion of witnesses.
Remember the only people who claim that the Gardai coerced Farrell into identifying Bailey are Farrell and Bailey.
The only people who claim the Gardai used Graham to setup Bailey are Graham and Bailey.
The missing pages are unfortunate but down to mismanagement and frankly incompetence.
There may be simple explanations for their absence, just like there is a simple explanation for the gate being "missing", it was returned to the family as per procedure.
The problem for the people who think Bailey was setup was that the Bandon tapes and subsequent GDOC inquiry where not the treasure trove they hoped they would be.
There was no setup, Bailey was a legit strong suspect.
Would they have noticed a diary in the rubbish - I doubt it. There is no way possible they had time to forensically check the rubbish or check the car for concealed items. Also there is the possibility that items were concealed at a different location and picked up and disposed of by Shirley on her travels.
We'll never know what she disposed of that day due to bad garda procedures. It was probably household waste but we simply cannot be sure of that.
Det. Pat Joy was in charge of the site at that time. He was trained in forensics and scene of crime preservation, so I would assume the car was thoroughly checked.
Also bear in mind, first responders- police, paramedics, fireservice etc will come across a scene as horrific as Shirley saw that morning. Some will be coming across it for the first time and will be expected to behave professionally and carry on with the job. OK you will say, "But they are trained for that".
No training would prepare you for what she saw.
Of course its possible they could have had something to do with - they were at the scene, had a motive, knew the victim, heard and seen nothing. They should not have been allowed remove their rubbish or their car from the scene.
How were they treated as suspects early on by the gardai - I have not seen this noted anywhere.
Would they? In the rubbish bags? That we don't ever know were checked, or how thoroughly...
So no, we don't know what they would have noticed, if the 'check' was a quick glance at bags in a car.
I think they would have noticed bloodied clothes, a bloodied weapon and most of all bloodied patches on car handles similar to the one on Sophies door.
So again, what's your allegation? That the neighbours had something to do with it? Or that the murderer opened their car and put all these things in it? When its entirely possible their car was locked all night.
There seems to be a lot of vague insinuations here. For the record, the neighbours were considered as suspects early on, but it was dismissed as they appeared to be too frail, which is unsurprising given that both were retired or approaching retirement age.
There is absolutely nothing in her behaviour that indicates anything suspicious. People behave in shock in different ways. Some go into auto-pilot mode. Some don't process what just happened and mightn't do so for a while. And some just want to get as far away from the scene as possible. Anyone would be in shock in her situation.
How do you know that nothing of significance was dumped. There was a poker and axe missing from the house that hasnt been found. Sophies diary is missing aswell. And please dont tell me that Garda dumb and dumber done a forensic check of the rubbish because that couldnt have happened in the time frame.
The Guards at the time didn't know what the murder weapon was.
There could be bloody items of clothing.
It is standard practice for police to check bins in vicinity of a murder for such things. Just because it is in your bin doesn't mean you put it there either.
You would imagine though she would have been pretty shook up. I would think most people would not be able to continue with their day as normal after discovering their neighbour murdered.
I would have thought she should be fearful aswell. Afterall at that stage the thinking would be that there was a crazed murderer on the loose in the area - you would have thought she would have at least got Alfie to go with her in the car. I doubt she had anything to do with it but still her behaviour was odd imo. She acted like she just found a cat dead on the road!
Sorry, what is the specific allegation or point your are trying to make here?
The only confirmed murder weapons were some rocks and a block, which were still present at the scene when the gardai arrived.
There is no evidence the neighbours put anything incriminatory in the car, to bring to the dump, as why on earth would they leave the murder weapons at the scene if they did!
You'd wonder why;
went "missing"?
She was probably in shock though and these days you'd hope would have received proper support, as likely not in a fit state as you note.
She may have just wanted to get away from the body, do something
That's certainly one way of looking at it.
However she did admit his alibi was complete hogwash and she had essentially given him a false one, which very closely resembles perverting the course of justice. So there's form there for being prepared to lie to clear him.
And having being beaten up by Bailey several times, its questionable how much free will she had.
So coming clean now would hardly be in her best interests, after potentially covering for someone for years.
Ultimately, whether she thinks he did it or not, its not really in her interests to say he's guilty, as would imply she knew all along and covered for him.
All of this is true.
Has nothing to do with why Bailey became the main suspect though. Had he a proper alibi, he could have been ruled out immediately. He didn't.
The French ex lover was ruled out because he had an alibi, as was the peeping Tom and a number of others.
Once Bailey became a suspect, he did himself no favours. It takes a particular kind of individual to make jokes about a recent murder in the locality such as I did it, or I did it to resurrect my career, or her murder was only worth 25 pounds to me.
Then there's the other lies about having or not having a premonition.
Had he kept his big mouth shut, he probably would never have been a suspect, but he couldn't help it. Seemed to enjoy the attention and fame from it. The more he talked the more of a suspect he became.
Of course the car could have backed up the laneway. It was cold, it was December, the rubbish could have waited a day or two.
Or the rubbish could have been taken by Guards.
It should not have left the scene without being properly checked, and we have no record it was properly checked.
Shirley drove off to the dump and met Bailey on her way - this is fact not a red herring.
You think it was the correct decision to let her drive the car off - Honestly you cannot possibly think that was ok?
Very good post.
My own two cents is that Bailey was not guilty, but certainly reveled in being the center of attention in this case, and invited a lot of the focus onto himself intentionally.
You can tell a lot from his demeanor, it always struck me as a man speaking who knew he did not do it himself, which probably put him onto the mindset 'well I know I did not do it, so it does not matter if I look suspicious by what I say or what I do'.
As time went on, however, I think he very likely lived to regret the manner in which he propelled himself into the center of attention, and realized that he had created something which was going to destroy him.
I believe her car was blocking the laneway or impeding access and she was asked to move it on. With a car full of rubbish, she couldn't exactly drive back up the laneway, nor would there have been no point doing anything else except going to the dump.
Her car doing to the dump is the ultimate red herring used by Bailey defenders.
I agree - she was just some foreign woman all alone in Ireland for Christmas, gardai thought she was a nobody . Then as you say after Christmas they realised she well was connected in France - husband counted Chirac a friend. The Gardai knew they messed up and had to pin it on someone
Good post - fully agree. There is no reason to suspect that Jules is in any way covering for Bailey.
I would also add that had she had the slightest suspicion that Bailey was a sexually motivated murderer, she would not have allowed him to co-habit with her daughters. No mother would.
This was news headlines at the time.
https://www.thejournal.ie/grave-concern-over-missing-evidence-in-du-plantier-murder-investigation-4161933-Aug2018/
Pages were deliberately removed - they were not "lost", they were deliberately removed.
Missing pages from the garda ”Jobs Book” in relation to the murder investigation are of the most concern GSOC as the specific pages missing are from an area of the book when Ian Bailey seems to have first been identified as a potential suspect in the murder by gardaí – and as such, “they are potentially very significant”.
The report stated that as the hard-backed book had a glued spine “it would not be possible for pages to simply fall out of the book by accident and for them to be removed, this would have to have been a deliberate act”.
For me, the actions of Jules Thomas are key.
In interviews, she strikes me as a moral, honest person.
More importantly, she stayed by Bailey when the accusations were levelled despite their horrible past and the liklihood that their relationship was coming to an end. There was no more love, but there was duty.
As soon as Bailey was in the clear, she dropped him and moved on with her life. Her watch was ended. Whatever there had been on the past, she had no fear of him between the murder and final separation.
This selflessness suggests to me that she knew he did not do it. And, despite everything, she would not see him wronged.
It took a day or two for the sh1t to hit the fan. Then they realised who Sophie was, she was not some random foreign holidaymaker probably killed by someone who came with her, a lover maybe. Then it made international news and the local Garda were caught like rabbits in the headlights. But the damage had been done, messy crime scene, no proper forensics until after dark 12 hours later, no pathologist for 24 hours, no one in overall charge, an fiasco in the glare of the media. Then it got worse, keystone cops stuff.
Motive? As in arguments over a gate? Are you serious?
Which evidence are you referring to that the AGS destroyed? And please don't say the gate.
There's also accounts that Bailey destroyed evidence by the way. Not helpful to his case either.
Thats the first I heard that the dump was closed and if it was closed then where did Shirley go?
I dont know how she was in a fit state to go anywhere after discovering a body- it does seem she was determined to get to the dump or some other location. Her behaviour given the situation was not normal at all.
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