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The engima that is Cork hurling

[Deleted User]

I find the Cork approach to the game absurd. A German soccer manager a number of years ago observed that it didn't matter who was managing Ireland, they could only play one way anyway. Cork are the same, it's always a running and passing game. Far less direct hurling than any other county and that has been the way for almost 20 years now. They never got over the two in a row of 04 and 05, have persisted with that style since.

When their puck out strategy fell apart after half time against Clare on Sunday it took them ages to adjust. For much of the second half Clare had ball-winners Peter Duggan and David Fitzgerald under puckouts, Cork wouldn't see any value in lads like that.

They do play nice hurling for sure, but it has to be perfect to work out. They frequently lose close games as a result.

They really are a baffling county. They're one-dimensional, but the dimension they are strong in is very difficult to master and very hard to sustain. A true enigma.

Of all counties they could most do with an outside manager.

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The_Kew_Tour

Who is this outside manager going to be?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334969/the-engima-that-is-cork-hurling

The nicest bit of hurling came from David Fitzgerald on Sunday.

cosatron

Can't wait for golden miller's reply.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730235#Comment_121730235

That pass. Really didnt get the attention it deserved. Absolute perfection.

YabaDabaDooley

I expected Cork to put in a strong performance on Sunday to lay down a bit of a marker for the year ahead. Instead it was a pretty average performance for long spells.

The two goals in first half against the wind were also against the run of play but going in only two points adrift at the break i thought Cork would improve with the wind at their backs.

The first 15 minutes of the second half when Cork should have gone all out to edge in front was awful to watch. Giving away cheap frees, tippy tappy stuff. being second to the ball, not managing a score with a big wind it was Cork hurling at its worst.

They did improve towards the end but so much for starting the new year with a show of intent.

Big game at home to the cats on Saturday where two points are badly needed.

billyhead

On there day Cork are a lovely team to watch. They play fast free flowing skilful hurling. They have had fantastic underage success at U20 level and with their massive support the pressure is on them to win something. As a Limerick supporter we will allow them the league.

YabaDabaDooley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730235#Comment_121730235

Beautiful pass that took out the whole Cork backline. Morey didnt have to break stride and finished it well. Moment of the weekend.

[Deleted User]

Cody would be the ideal outside manager. They’d probably win an All Ireland within two years. Obviously it’ll never happen.

Increased intensity when they don’t have the ball and a little bit more directness when they do is what is required. But it’s what Cork have required for years and they never seem to change.

They’ve had a number of very talented hurlers for ten years or more but the sum is always less than the parts.

The Clare lads made a number of very good hooks and gave some hard but fair hits on Sunday. Its a big part of the game.

[Deleted User]

Kieran Joyce last Sunday was a fairly good example. He did play well, but he didn’t defend enough, especially in the first half. Joyce looked good on the ball but Mounsey was let get on the ball too much. Cork backs often don’t see to be negative enough.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730852#Comment_121730852

They had a good league last year, beating Limerick but it didn't do them much good so not sure how interested in a league run they are

YabaDabaDooley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121731005#Comment_121731005

'Who are we to not take the league seriously in Cork anymore'. Cork manager Pat Ryan last November. 26 long years without a league title so a bit of silverwate would do them no harm.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730981#Comment_121730981

The game has moved on from Cody.

[Deleted User]

Enigma? Maybe they just aren't good enough. If they'd more Harnedys and Horgans they'd certainly go places but unfortunately for them they don't seem to have.

Some of their 'backs' just don't seem at home defending either...

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733932#Comment_121733932

That their backs don’t put more emphasis on defending is a major part of what is so enigmatic about Cork..

PeggyShippen

I think Cork are a good outside bet for the All Ireland this year. They ll improve hugely as the season goes on. They are capable of beating every single team out there including Limerick on a given day . Yeah I think they ll give it a good rattle .

Straight Talker

Well the strikes (moreso the Gerald McCarthy one) and the fallout from them set Cork hurling back a decade. The game has gotten more psychical as well since 2005, although our most recent u20 all Ireland winning team team seems to have that bit of skill and toughness to win all Irelands at senior level. Hopefully that underage success will eventually transition through to senior level. We've lacked the hurlers to compete in the psychical stakes over the years especially in the forwards. Making the ball stick up top was an issue last Sunday as well!

Of course the stadium debt does affect funding with regards to the preparation of our intercounty squads. Since 2005 Kilkenny and Limerick have emerged with dominant teams. Tipp have been strong as well. I think post 1990 preparation of teams at intercounty level has gotten a hell of a lot more professional. It took us a hell of a long time to adapt to that changing landscape. We've only won three senior hurling all Irelands and one senior football all Ireland since 1990. That's not a great return considering the size of the county and our playing numbers etc.

I still think the potential is always there with Cork. We have the history and we have the playing numbers etc. I'd be confident enough that we can win a hurling all Ireland at senior level within the next five years or sooner. Stopping Limerick getting out of Munster would be a help in that regard. Limerick looked vulnerable enough in Munster last year, but once they hit Croke Park they just totally upped it to another level. I'd see Cork as very much in that chasing pack behind Limerick imo.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334969/the-engima-that-is-cork-hurling

Not disagreeing with Corks one dimensional game but Clare almost threw the game away hitting ball after ball on top of Duggan. For a proven ball winner, he didn't win much of it. Cork swamped him and turned him over repeatedly. Its nice to have the option but going long on top of any player repeatedly gives the opposition an advantage in every regard. One of Limericks greatest strengths is their ability to vary where the ball is going and to who. Mike Casey is as likely to get it as Kyle Hayes or even Gillane. Cork don't have that and very few other counties do either. I don't think its down to personnel. I think its down to a lack of creativity on the sideline. Half the coaches out there are copy and paste.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730994#Comment_121730994

Joyce is the same every game. My son mentioned how good a hurler he was in the first 5mins and I said he was but he'd score 4 or 5 and concede more just by not holding the CB position. Sure enough by halftime it was like Moses and the Red Sea.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735255#Comment_121735255

Well i think with regards to his CV at underage level, that on paper Pat Ryan was the best man for the job. Perhaps tactically the management can improve, but i thought there was a spirit to Corks performances last year despite our early championship exit. We need to stop these fadeouts in games though, where we let the opposition go six or seven points ahead. We do come back into those games, but it's hard to win matches when you let the opposition completely get on top of you like that.

evolvingtipperary101

One league game in and lads are going apeshit.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735609#Comment_121735609

Agree. It's early February FFS.

Meursault

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735609#Comment_121735609

Agree with this. Silly comments, given how early in the year it is. Cork lost away in the c'ship last year to Clare and Limerick by a point in each match. Granted, they should have pushed on against Tipp at home, when they got such a good start, and ended up drawing. Munster is cut throat though. Cork will have a big say this year I think. Its would be premature at the very least to write them off after one league game.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739456#Comment_121739456

Not writing them off at all. The point is that if they do triumph, it will be in spite of their style rather than because of it, unless they adjust. I think any other set of supporters would be losing the plot over their style of play. And they've stuck with it for years after the problems became apparent.

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735273#Comment_121735273

your man that was at 6 for u20s last year would have made a better centre back.. unfortunately for cork he chose a different path... Joyce may be more suited to midfield... Joyce is a serious hurler tho.... make any intercounty team..

Grats

Gosh the views being expressed all round about Cork not turning up is laughable. Kilkenny played out of their skins in the first half and had their own fade out in the second half. Cork had the reverse. No team keeps up such a tempo for the entire 70 minutes. People need to get real.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755625#Comment_121755625

I agree, super hurler. Not a CB. A bit like Paddy Deegan.

Seadin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755753#Comment_121755753

We must also get real about Cork hurling. They had moments against Clare in the first match where they didnt score for long periods. The same happened yesterday against Kilkenny. They go missing for long periods and then they have too much work to do to get back into the game. If this trend continues Cork will not make it out of the Munster championship again this year. Last year Kilkenny beat Cork in the semi final of the league. People were saying Ryan wasn't showing his cards etc but what worried me that day is Cork never looked like winning at any stage of that game. When the Munster championship happened then, they couldn't beat Tipp Clare and Limerick. More of the same will continue if Ryan doesn't address these notable issues.

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755891#Comment_121755891

Joyce is much much better than Paddy Deegan....

randd1

If the hand-pass rule changed to eliminate the throw (and it needs to happen), Cork would be in serious bother.

In terms of pace and movement, Cork have no equal, they are the best at it in my view. However, I struggle to see them deliver more than a handful of legitimate hand-passes a game, although the assist for the goal Saturday night was a beauty of a pass (and one permitted and encouraged under the proposed new rule) in terms of vision and execution. Their attacking game game is built almost exclusively around throwing the ball to retain possession which allows them to use their pace and movement to great effect.

And as long as the throw is allowed, then horse on. Their comeback the other night against Kilkenny, most of it was down to getting their throwing game in order after a poor sort where the movement was more static and individual.

The problem for Cork though, is when it gets into the nitty gritty, or when easy possession can't be retained, they struggle to win ball, whether in the air or on the ground, and have no out and out defender bar Joyce.

Their movement and pace is too much for other sides to handle, but is built around throwing the ball. But if you break it down, without the weapon of easy retained possession through throwing, or all their skill, they lack the all-round skills of other sides, particularly the further back the field you go.

I remember that 03-06 team, the defenders/midfield. Wayne Sherlock, Pat Mulcahy, The Rock, Murphy, Gardner, Curran, O'Hailpín, Tom Kenny, Jerry O'Connor. Cusack, a really top, top keeper as well. They weren't just big men, they were athletic (not so the Rock, but you didn't go through him), their first touch was perfect, they were strong in the air, but above all they had the skill, the teak toughness and real instinct and fight. Cut from a different cloth them lads were.

Cork just don't seem to be producing that type of players any more, for whatever reason. And while those players were generational players, to not produce even a few of those type of players for as long as they have, is a mystery in a county the size and tradition and history of Cork.

Outside view? Cork look the very definition of over-couching through the various levels. Athletic, movement, quality first touch, quality striking, tactics based around movement and athleticism, but dulled instincts and lack of other skills that might not be as flashy, but every bit as important. And without them skills, you get found out eventually. you'll get far, you might even get to the big day, but you don't get the trophy. And god help them if the throwing in the sport gets tackled, because the lack of those skills is more exposed when they can't use the throw to greater effect than others like they do.

A lack of all round quality. it's that simple. Solve that, you solve the Cork hurling enigma, and they start winning All-Ireland's again.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757019#Comment_121757019

It's not that much of an enigma. Cork produce a lot of professional players in other sports. And there's a clear avenue to getting a paycheck for athletic prowess since the advent of rugby in particular. It's still hard to make it. But a top talent will. Also, if you opt for football there's a chance you can get to the AFL. Many top talents in Cork, Tipp, Limerick and Galway are hedging their bets, playing both, until professionalism doesn't work out. And they're 100 right to do that. There's also Cork city fc. Cork is a proper sporting county - senior rugby clubs, senior soccer clubs, proper athletics, and so on. It's very hard to make it as a player in the premiership and first division - top leagues, serious money - Cork have a lot of lads in those leagues for the size of the place.

For instance, take a player like Mason Cawley. Young guy. Super hurler. Doesn't play that much hurling - plays when he can. Is with Munster development squads. Rocks up to the harty final scores three points - looks dangerous every time he gets the ball. But his first priority will be making it as a rugby player. Jake Morris grew up as a neighbor to Ben Healy and Barry Coffey - one goes to Munster (now at Edinburgh and Scotland) and the other goes to Celtic and Cork City. Top talent will find a way. A lot of Cork's really special underage talent goes to rugby or afl.

Of the players you list, with their talents, if they were offered a chance to go in with a Munster development squad at a young age back then, they would have taken it. Absolutely no guarantees of making it. But, now, more than ever, if you're gifted there are routes in place to take to make it as a professional. Look at the career Meyler's son made for himself - probably a multi-millionaire out of it.