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Dangers of Lithium ion batteries.

murphthesmurf

Interesting video I just watched on YouTube regarding the dangers of lithium ion batteries. Not only buildings related, but this is probably the most relevant thread for it.

A presentation by Professor Paul Christensen. Well worth a watch.

The biggest takeaway, never charge an E-scooter in your home or apartment block.

I work in the fire industry, and fires from these light transport vehicles and electric cars is a real challenge. We had a training day last year where this issue was raised. The general consensus was that it's only a matter of time before there's a major incident involving Lithium ion in apartments or similar.

https://youtu.be/AIXTP-TgPEw?si=Hjno5OGfs_gxRDiq

Well worth watching.

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Mellor

There have been a number of fires where the cause was determined to be e-scoorters, hooverboard or the like. Mostly from cheap knocks-offs. I don't know it reputably brands are the same risk.

What about lit-ion battery used in buildings. As in properly installed and certified. Do you think that's a fire risk? Or ok once it has the right suppression?

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334862/dangers-of-lithium-ion-batteries

As @Mellor said about cheap knock offs but how many electric cars have you seen burst into flames? Not many I have heard of and what part of the industry do you work? I would imagine firefighters would have the most knowledge about actual numbers in Ireland. I don't think I have seen any in the news here with either scooters or electric cars but stand to be corrected. I'm not saying Lithium ion batteries are 100% safe but if used correctly there is a minimal risk of anything going wrong.

Del2005

There are billions of phones, tablets, laptops, cars, scooter, bikes and vapes charged everyday and you rarely hear about fires.

99% of the time you hear about a battery fire it always ends up being a cheap knock off charger or battery that got zero QC and no official kite mark.

The issue isn't Li-ion batteries it's people buying cheap knock offs.

the_amazing_raisin

Ah yes, the old Lithium boogeyman shows up again

So it's worth considering that there are different types of lithium batteries on the market

The batteries used in home solar storage are called Lithium Iron Phosphate or LiFePo or LFP for short. These batteries are effectively non combustible, you can chuck one into a fire and it won't ignite (I wouldn't advise trying this though)

EVs often use a chemistry called Nickel Manganese Cobalt or NMC for short. This has favourable characteristics for mobile applications because it has a higher energy density (more energy stored per kilogramme of battery) but also better performance in cold weather. This chemistry unfortunately will produce oxygen when ignited and will continue to burn even when immersed in water

However, while NMC batteries will burn for a long time, they don't tend to burn very intensely. Once the combustible materials nearby are consumed they just sort of sit there smouldering. This does present an issue for firefighters because they have to keep dousing the battery for a long time

Again, the statistics are very much in favour of EVs though, there is a far lower fire incidence rate among EVs than fossil cars. Also many manufacturers are switching over to the aforementioned LFP batteries to keep costs down

In terms of E-scooters, it seems the problem is very similar to the current leading cause of fires in home; phone chargers

The cheap generic chargers from Dealz and equivalent are notoriously bad from an electrical safety point of view. Combined with people's tendency to charge their phone overnight beside their bed on an IKEA table which is effectively kindling and you've a recipe for a flaming disaster

For E-scooter batteries the problem is basically the same but can be somewhat worse since some of those chargers carry a lot more current. A well designed one should have sufficient safeguards to shut down in the event of a fault, but again there's a problem with knock off brands skipping any of the safety components

The biggest fix in my view is behavioural. Stop buying cheap unbranded chargers unless they're certified as safe by an external party (something like the UL mark in the US)

Also stop charging equipment like that overnight and unsupervised. Charge it while you're awake and able to keep an eye on it, on a plug that doesn't have anything else drawing a load of power and if it seems to be getting overheated then switch it off

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334862/dangers-of-lithium-ion-batteries

What part of the fire industry are you in?

Can you give examples of these EV fire challenges please that you’ve encountered?

eScooter fires have been widespread with incidents in Dublin, both shopping centres and apartment buildings.

Are you aware of the design considerations in relation to batteries?

Placement of EV charge points in basements, sprinklers, store rooms in protected entrance halls etc

murphthesmurf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121729478#Comment_121729478

I mostly work on fire alarms, with some extinguisher work. The company I work for deals with all areas of fire detection and prevention.

People have a habit of charging E scooters in hallways and lobbies in apartment blocks. If it catches fire it blocks the main, or possibly only, escape route.

The biggest problem with EV's is putting them out.

murphthesmurf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727821#Comment_121727821

Cheap chargers are a big problem, but as you see in the video it's not the only problem.

For homes and apartments E scooters etc can be a real danger. Don't bother going for the nearest fire extinguisher, it won't work.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121729883#Comment_121729883

Most new apartments being built now have “management company” sockets in the common areas now to avoid residents using the landlord power supply. It’s one fix to the situation.

The biggest problem with EV’s is putting them out…..have you any examples in Ireland yet of this happening?

Im not aware of a single EV fire as of yet. We do need more black and white guidance on EV charging but new apartments now have charging facilities to every single spot in the basements so it’s about designing the en into the fire strategy.

Ventilation.

Water supply.

Placement of bin stores

Services on soffits of basements etc

Fire fighter signage and protection including cut off points outside.

But the inherent issues fall back on small spaces, cars too close to each other so fire spread becomes a problem.

Most of my issues on site were from the M&E Consultants and Fire Alarm installers believe it or not. Arguing over addition detection in store rooms, arguing over additional lighting on escape routes etc

Fire Alarm Cable segregation and methods of support was a big argument in previous years. They are coming around now and accept they were wrong though.

NIMAN

How many EVs have caught fire?

Any reports in the last few years that made the news were standard ICE cars.

Water John

The cheap electrics in washing machines and tumble dryers, are quite hazardous. I would be much more concerned about them, esp as people are using night rate more and asleep while those appliances are on.

Padre_Pio

Cheap chargers and cheaper cables. Even the genuine iphone cables used to fray really badly.

It's a big problem that I can see becoming more common. My cheap Xiaomi phone charges at 66W, that's a terrific amount of power in such a small space, and without the correct quality of charger and cable it can be quite dangerous.

I used a short USB-C cable once to charge my phone and the cable was too hot to touch within 10 seconds.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730167#Comment_121730167

It's not just about historical EV fire stats', it's also about a future scenario such as the equivalent of the Opel Insignia or BMW fire hazards.

It's somewhat akin to the counter-argument on the restriction of dangerous dogs where it's said that all dogs have the potential to bite, but it's the force/power of the bite and the body-mass of the animal which makes it different to a bite from a common dog. EV's contain a volatile power source and you don't have the tools such as foam fire extinguishers to tackle and contain the initial fire. And from the initial ignition of a Li-ion battery in a group of cells, you're in a whole world of trouble...

murphthesmurf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730237#Comment_121730237

Did you watch the video?

murphthesmurf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730167#Comment_121730167

This isn't an attack on EV cars. Thankfully these fires are rare.

The video is about Lithium ion battery fires in general, not targeted at cars.

Have you watched the video?

murphthesmurf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730071#Comment_121730071

No, I've no examples from Ireland. But don't see how it's relevant what country a car is in. The fires can't be put out. Germany came up with an idea so that when an EV caught fire, they would place a big skip beside it if possible. Drop the car into it with a crane, fill it with water and leave it there for a week. Not the most practical idea though.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730535#Comment_121730535

Wasn't there also a mention of a recovery vehicle which would go into underground parking and pull the offending blazing vehicle out to the surface (or a designated fire-resistant treatment area) in the absence of being able to get a water-bath around the constrained environment of a parking garage. Thought that seemed interesting in concept!

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730522#Comment_121730522

I haven't watched the video, but you mentioned EVs in your OP.

Edit, now watched some of the actual footage in the video, some scary stuff. I'll watch the entire video when I get some time.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727821#Comment_121727821

"Also stop charging equipment like that overnight and unsupervised. Charge it while you're awake and able to keep an eye on it, on a plug that doesn't have anything else drawing a load of power and if it seems to be getting overheated then switch it off"

This above ... but how many follow this advice. Even in our house it's seemingly impossible for others not to leave things charging overnight. And of course, this is encouraged too by cheaper night rates and exhortations by some to use these to maintain supplies in daytime. Real mixed messages coming from authorities on such matters.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730569#Comment_121730569

Yes. I seen this been done to an iPace.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121730569#Comment_121730569

For the vast majority of car parks it's impossible to get a recovery vehicle into a position to easily attach the disabled vehicle to tow it away.

Underground or multi storey and on fire I can't see anybody being sent in to recover a vehicle, especially since most recovery vehicles won't fit into an underground or multi storey car park.

Gumbo

Edit. Ignore. Can’t find the photo now.