Everybody is aware that taxation from fossil fuelled vehicles will be replaced at some point in the future. There's no straightforward solution that can apply taxation at the point of dispensation like we have with petrol and diesel.
In the meantime, we have made commitments to reduce carbon emissions with financial penalties attached to achieving those commitments. I'd much rather see a reduction in tax money taken on AFVs than us taxing them and paying that money as fines so the money can be spent on cleaning up the local air quality in Berlin and Rome.
Agriculture, Transportation, and Energy Generation are our major carbon generators. We have the means to reduce emissions from Transportation and Energy, we just need to continue to invest in their transition rather than tax them. Once we've reached our goals, we can look to taxation on a user pays principle again.
One consideration that's often overlooked with AFV taxation is the change in economic flows. According to CSO statistics, over the last 12 months the net trade in Petroleum, Gas, and Coal resulted in €8.1 billion leaving the Irish economy. That's roughly 4% based on our GNI. Fuel duty currently brings in around €2 billion per year, with €1 billion brought in by Motor Tax. I wonder how much taxable economic activity would be generated by keeping the €8 billion in our economy instead of sending it to the Middle East and Norway.
Oh I'm fully plugged in.
The tax from ICE's will just need to be phased over to EV's. No way the government will ignore that cash cow.
The only question really is how it will be done.
Mod Note: Funding of public transport e.g. subsidies are better suited to the commuting and transport forum https://www.boards.ie/categories/commuting-transport. Please stick to the topic of taxation of alternatively fuelled vehicles, not how that tax will be used
It's subsidised horse. I'm not sure you're as well plugged into this as you assume. Pun intended.
And they are spending twice as much on public transport which in rural areas has to be buses as our population density is too low for trains, buses need good roads.
Dublin, Cork and Galway need rail. Everywhere else it's buses unless we start forcing people from one off houses into towns.
I don't know any motorist who doesn't pay taxes along with the added taxes for the pleasure of driving. Motorists pay more taxes than someone who doesn't drive and who only uses public transport, public transport is heavily subsidised.
Is public transport going to be free?
Carbon fines will be 600 million per year. How many diesel taxes is that?
Ignore the road maintenance argument for a second - the reality is as simple as this:
Current revenues from ICE cars being on the road (tax + fuel consumed) are many multiples higher, per car, than for EVs)
As we transition to more and more EVs on the road, total revenue collected will drop. Some spending programme in the state will lose out, unless other taxes are levied on EVs.
Given our states history, do you really think they would be content to reduce spending in line with the reduction in car related revenue? Or will they devise a new method to increase revenues again?
My money is on the latter.
When loads of people move to public transport as is government plan they collect zero. What's your point.
Road maintenance comes out of general taxation, not just the vehicles contribution. Motorists don't pay the full burden of road maintenance as it is as it's not ringfenced like that.
When somebody drives an EV 100km the government collects (absolute ballpark) €6 via vat and duty at the pumps.
When somebody drives an EV 100kms the government gets (absolute ballpark) €0.20 in VAT on the electricity consumed.
Keep burying your head in the sand all you want but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that the government won't start closing that gap over time.
I did. Had a good laugh when the thought crossed my mind.
I also had a good laugh when another idea crossed my mind, that our green obsessed Govt is going to excuse EVs from increased motor taxation because they have significantly contributed to a reduction in our carbon fines🤣. Ah well back in the real world
Who said that? Or thought it ?
Thinking that Irish private ev motorists aren't going to get shafted for taxation at some point in the near future. Now that is an amusement. Private cars have been the gift that keeps on giving and no Govt is going to relinquish that particular teat for too long
At some stage that will be true. Whether that will be a flat rate motor tax, increased from the current €120 or a pay per use system, we don’t know yet. But motor tax goes into a local government fund and is ringfenced for all 26 local authorities so it will have to be something universal.
Bury your head in the sand if you want.
But at some point EV's will have to carry the full burden of road maintenance costs.
It's inevitable.
Great anecdote when was it the government spent 5 billion on rural roads exactly ? Last year? 2021 ? ?
Wait, sorry do you think fuel tax is ring fenced for roads ? This is an amusement.
"The estimated cost of works on rural roads countrywide is over €5bn, Transport Minister Eamon Ryan told the Dail."
I fully understand that:
A/ EV's pay motor tax but at a much lower rate than an ICE.
B/ EV's pay tax on electricity, a full 9% on cheap 8 cent night rate electricity. A negligible contribution.
Explain for us how road maintenance will be paid for when everything is EV please.
Your not getting it either a bulk of that diesel cost goes off fluttered away on carbon fines or contributions. It seems your still out of touch that A evs actually pay motor tax and B that they pay tax on electricity and C we as a nation are fined for not meeting carbon agreements.
Your not getting it either.
Drivers will still have to pay for road maintenance.
This will be passed on to EV's at some point.
The more you drive the more you will pay.
And every time you fill a car with petrol or diesel. Money leaves the state as it’s all imported. Electricity from RES gives us energy security and independence
No you are still not getting it.
Roads will always have to be maintained.
At the moment when somebody puts a litre of petrol in their car, the government collect about €1. When a car is filled with electricity the contribution is negleble.
If and when everybody drives an EV then some mechanism will have to be put in place to collect the revenue to pay for road maintenance based on the user pays principle that applies to pretty much everything else.
Your missing the point here. Evs pay motor tax or did you just ignore that. I can't tell..
You are totally missing the point there.
Road maintenance will still need to be paid for.
Some new mechanism of "user pays" taxation on EV's will need to be introduced to achieve this.
EVs are not tax free nor is electricity though. And the incentives now are near to fk all tbh. Next year they'll probably be 0.
What about the carbon fines we are paying out on... ?
People need to realise that presently ICE bring in huge revenue in duty, VAT and motor tax.
This then pays for the upkeep of roads and other things.
At some point a formula will need to be devised to charge EV's proportionately for road maintenance.
My point being the big reason for your €1/kWh difference is taxation and incentivisation and this will begin to narrow at some stage.
To add to your point, the average mileage car only needs that 7kw charge for one hour per day (15,000km per year).
So for the 2.1 million cars you'd have 350,000 charging at a time (assuming all charging is overnight (12-6) and staggered).
Gives us 2450 mwh of extra demand, ( for the number of EVs we might have in 2050).
peak demand - night demand is around 2000mwh so we have already have the power generation capacity for that amount of EVs.
Issue is renewables are ramping too slowly and electrification of heat, buses, trucks etc... will also need a huge amount of new electricity generation. But once we have enough electricity capacity to meet peak demand from renewables the night surpluses should be plenty for charging EVs.
