Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121893012#Comment_121893012

I dont see why a scrum against should be called if a player joins after use it is called. 5 seconds is a long time for a ruck and dynamic of ruck can still chamge a lot in that time so players should still be able to join to contest ruck/protect the ball.

Yellow card suring phase play isnt really possible. Roar at player to leave. Yeah that really foibg to work. You cant give a penalty try if they refused. A penalty try is only awarded if a probable try would have been scored but for foul play

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121893012#Comment_121893012

Agree with something to be done about players joining the ruck, especially, if they're only there to extend the length of the ruck

Wouldn't agree with your second point at all.

Water John

Use it, should have a definite time frame that's implemented. Whether that's five seconds or possibly three.

BoardsMember

Law change suggestion - scrum against if a player on the attacking team joins the ruck after the ref calls "use it".

Also, option for the ref to yellow card during phase play. Won't always be possible, but if a side needs 4 points or more at end of game (for example) he could roar at a specific number to leave the field. Would make it easier for the attacking team. Ref could give pen try if it's ignored.

Something that really annoys me is players hanging onto a ball in touch and preventing a throw-in etc. IMO there should be a penalty if the ball is not instantly released.

sydthebeat

Plus the obvious big difference between the two sports is a yellow in soccer isn't penalised during the game, where as it is in rugby.

Therefore there has to be a sanction in soccer for an accumulation of yellow cards, otherwise everyone can foul to a yellow card level with impunity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652767#Comment_121652767

Dont think you can compare the two sports. You can have team yellows in rugby which penalises individual in a way you dont see in soccer.

I dont think a yellow in a previous game should affect players like that especially getting a punishment for 2 yellows.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652767#Comment_121652767

I like the idea of there being further risk for "serial offenders" but not sure about a 2 card threshold , particularly given that Rugby has the concept of the "team yellow" that doesn't exist in Soccer and also the fact that you can get a yellow card for non foul play actions depending on where they occur on the field.

Take for example the Leinster game on Saturday , Jack Conan got a card for a simple off-side offence because the team were on a warning following a series of earlier penalties. Conan had only been on the pitch for a few minutes at that point so he wasn't the one giving away the earlier penalties.

It would be very harsh for a player to miss out on a later KO game because they picked up a "team yellow" in a group game.

Clontarf_Jazz

Rule change : I'd really like to see the powers that be introduce this rule change which is akin to the Champions League in soccer i.e. it a player amasses 2 yellow cards in the 4 group stages matches the he is suspended for the next knockout match. It would help to punish certain serial offenders & would I may I think help prevent anyone one 1 yellow card from committing deliberate foul play in a subsequent match or see his team leave him out of the starting line up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635461#Comment_121635461

Exactly - The concern is player safety and a Prop is perfectly safe to move the the hooker position for scrummaging purposes.

They might not be very good at it and probably won't be able to throw in but there should be no safety concerns , which is the reasons for the various laws around "qualified substitutions" etc.

Water John

A hooker might not be suitable or able to prop, but most props could fill in as a hooker.

theintern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630881#Comment_121630881

I don't know if every prop can drop in at hooker though at a high level. I've seen the official forms from all provinces over the last season or two and they aren't listing all front rows as LH, TH, H capable. Likewise they're not listing all props as TH/LH. There are still definitely specialists in all positions. I think they're just more likely to list it down if someone does have some experience.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630637#Comment_121630637

I think all countries are doing it - The Italy shambles was a wake-up call to everyone to make sure you have your props "cross trained" as it were and much more importantly , listed on the team sheet as such.

One the day, one of the Italian Props would have been absolutely fine moving in to Hooker for contested scrums , but because they weren't listed as such on the team sheet they were not allowed.

I remember a game a good few years back where Steve Thompson , the world cup winning England hooker was playing in the backrow in a club game and the hookers got injured and the scrums went uncontested even though Thompson was there, because he was not marked on the team sheet as a hooker so he was not allowed step in.

theintern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624849#Comment_121624849

The sanction here is a scrum, not a penalty. Here's a video of it happening in a ProD2 match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxW2xyMVJTY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624971#Comment_121624971

The story I've heard is that ever since Italy ended up down to 13 because of a red card and an injury to a hooker, Ireland have been listing their front rows as being able to play all possible positions they're in any way capable of playing, just in case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624753#Comment_121624753

I remember a video clip from a few years ago of Ruan Pienaar , playing in France (where they've had the kick clock for a while) deliberately standing and watching the clock tick down - He was ready to go with about 40 seconds left , but he just stood there with the crowd completely losing it before he finally moved with about 5 seconds to go and the ref blew the final whistle then.

Found the clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02iNQu87Yco&ab_channel=Rugbydump2015

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624894#Comment_121624894

agreed, healy would have to have been listed a hooker replacement on the official paperwork pre game.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624894#Comment_121624894

Yes to be able to have contested scrums in games you must be nominated before game as a loose head or hooker or tight head on team sheet handed to officials/match organisers before gamr starts.

Water John

Cian Healy would have to have been listed as a possible hooker option. Didn't just say, 'I did that before'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624783#Comment_121624783

Yeah in some circumstances if you are the team to cause scrums to go uncontested you have to drop a player. Which is to stop a team who are struggling in scrum negating their oppositions strength. They lose a player as a punishment

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624540#Comment_121624540

Has to be a genuine attempt at goal. Penalty against the team kicking thr goal if officials deem it not a genuine attempt

Clontarf_Jazz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624631#Comment_121624631

Yeah that's what I assumed - it's just I'd bever ever seem it arise in a game before. It's was like when Ireland had the 2 hookers injured v Scotland & would have had to play on with 14 through not fault of their own only Cian Healy piped up & said he'd played there at underage level (was it)

theintern

This is explicitly covered in law by 8.20.

Side note, you said 90 seconds. That's a conversion. A penalty is 60 seconds.

8.21 The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.

Anyway,

8.20 If the team indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, they must kick at goal. The intention to kick can be communicated to the referee or signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.

Like all laws in rugby, it's open to interpretation what the referee considers 'a kick at goal'. Referees aren't mindless machines, and in the case of a match with only a few seconds left, I think most referees would see through this and award a scrum to the opposition team.

The same applies at a restart kick. You can't just kick the ball out of play or not ten, thinking it'll cause a scrum and the match will be over. Or at a lineout, if time expires in between when the ball went out and when the throw is taken. A team that wants the game to end could throw the ball crooked on purpose to cause a scrum. But the scrum will still take place, even though time is up for exactly this reason.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624540#Comment_121624540

My understanding is it's a penalty to the other team; it has to be a legit attempt, you can't deliberately kick it into touch. (And for it to hit touch, it'd require a slice so bad that it'd be hard to argue it wasn't deliberate).

I do remember ROG having a penalty years ago and you could hear him on the ref mic asking "can I miss it badly?", a request that was denied by the ref.

Clontarf_Jazz

Question : Re Frawley's monster penalty versus LAR. Say in theory Leinster are given that peno & the match clock is < 90 seconds remaining. They indicate a kick @ goal. The kicker runs down the clock to the point it is now in the red & instead of going for goal he kicks the ball into touch. What is the sanction(if any against the kicker). Can he claim he sliced it. Does the kicker have to be seen to make a genuine attempt at kicking the goal. Is there a rule in the book about such an eventuality ? Just a theoretical question as if Frawley had missed & the ball hadn't gone dead there was a risk LAR could have gone the length og the field & scored an unlikely try & conversion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390367#Comment_120390367

Is there a pic of it?

BoardsMember

TMO for the last play in the Scotland v Italy game should be shot. Fagerson miles offside stopped the try, caused the knock on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385800#Comment_120385800

What about defenders moving offside as the ball comes out of a ruck in front of them? Their position certainly matters. Do you think all such offenders are caught at the moment?

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385800#Comment_120385800

That's very different to the consistent tactic that plenty of teams employ of having a hard rush defence in the centre channels and usually starting from centre line of the ruck or even oppositions back foot, instead of starting from their own back foot line.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385578#Comment_120385578

A ruck 5m from touch and the winger of defence is a step offside and is on the far 5m line is not material. Not every offside matters. you warn player if you really need to but you dont penalise it. that isnt being inconsistent. its managing the game. you cant and wont penalise every infringement. you penalise what is material to play

like at a ruck a defending player goes off their feet but the ball is at back foot and scrum half can get ball away do you penalize. not always. you play on and warn player..

It depends on situation whether its material. you cant set a standard because it wont be met because its impossible to meet it