I don’t need to explain why only one 2019 minor has so far fully broken into the Lim senior team; I saw with my own eyes two nights ago how lads who were average enough minors are now serious hurlers with savage conditioning.
Will that ensure Limerick continue to win boatloads of senior All Irelands? I don’t know, all I do know is that what is going on in terms developing serious senior intercounty players in Limerick is unreal and unprecedented.
And writing it off as "ah sure, we just have a great crop of lads, we will be back down in the pack again soon enough" is glib nonsense. As silly as buying Dubs saying the same. I have heard Dublin lads insincerely spouting that stuff for nearly a decade.
The 2014 minor Lim minor team were v good but weren't a "generational team", they needed two games to get past Waterford in Munster final and were only small favourites going into AI final, Kilkenny fancied their chances (and had beaten Waterford in semi).
As seniors, they became “generational” while Waterford who went toe to toe with them in the same age bracket for nearly 3 years, and Kilkenny 2014/2015 (robbed of the 2015 minor AI) players didn’t. Why?
Because those Waterford and Kilkenny players went into a conventional county senior set up and Limerick (post 2016) went in to an advanced and well-funded programme and became “generational players”
As a Kilkenny man, am I jealous of that? Damn right I am.
But the bigger picture here in an amateur sport is the unevenness of it.
How long can the GAA allow monstrous disparities in team budgets continue before it all becomes a lobsided bore (football has already got there, the Leinster championship for years now an uncompetitive joke).
The NFL (surely no one’s idea of Corinthians) have team salary caps that are strictly enforced and also have “the draft” to allow the weakest teams first shot at best young players. That isn’t out of any spirit of sporting goodwill. It is smart, it is to ensure the NFL isn’t perpetually dominated by 2/3 huge, big city franchises with billions more to spend than the likes of Cincinnati, Green Bay or Kansas City. Keeping the league competitive is what makes it so popular, people would tune out and the full stadiums in Kansas and Green Bay would empty if the fans knew there was no prospect of winning a Super Bowl.
So we have one of the greediest, capitalistic sporting leagues in the world smart enough to understand vast gaps in funding between teams competing in the same competition is stupid in terms of long term popularity of its sport, but a strictly amateur one like the GAA apparently not giving a toss.
Want to spend 6 million training you senior team and have the money to do it? No problem.
Shamrocks Ballyhale won plenty of All Irelands and used various other club/county facilities on route. If it were all down to facilities, the likes of Offaly and Wexford would be more competitive.
Ah they had more players coming through than Waterford at that time, Waterford only really had 1 outstanding team who won minor in 13 then u21 in 16 some of those Waterford players didn't translate to Senior either Shane Bennett has been coming and going from the panel, Tom Devine stepped away from intercounty at 23 to persue his career in medicine, Limerick got 2 u21 All Ireland's in convincing fashion, funnily that crop and the Clare team that won 3 u21s 2012-14 didn't win a single minor All Ireland between them, more inconsistency at that age group, Limerick minors in 2014 were seen as a generational team and ye shocked them in the final if my memory serves me right, similar to last year when Galway were certs to win u17 and Clare shocked them in the final. Wouldn't be getting bogged down in the schools records, if we were ye would be cleaning up based on Kierans record.
I agree Limerick are well resourced and its a big help but it certainly isn't the only factor at play, thing about a golden crop is you don't realise at 17, 18, 19 how good they are, you know there some excellent players but wouldn't realise there a crop to bring unprecedented success, when Tommy, JJ, Richie Power etc. were coming through you probably knew they were good players but could never predict they'd be lads who would backbone 8 wins in 10 years. If Limerick have built a system like you said please explain why Cathal O'Neill is the only player to break in their core 20 or so players since 2019, their team has changed very little since 2018, when ye were on top 1 or 2 were introduced every year.
Kilkenny certainly lacks for facilities to train in the winter time, county teams training in another county says it all.
I think you've clearly laid out what's going on in Limerick. Croke Park need to acknowledge it and decide if that's the way forward for all. It may not be possible but they need to do something about the runaway train.
On throwing the ball - every team may be doing it at this stage but certainly not to the same extent as some. Since there's nothing being done to eradicate it, it's time for us to accept it, perfect it and use it throughout the league. Come the championship it'll be ignored in the same way as last year, so meanwhile let's get on with it.
Why didn't they use Dunmore? University facilities are being used by various counties. We should link up with SETU Carlow and Waterford to avail of their facilities as we may never have similar ones here and perhaps won't need them.
That crop of Limerick underage players were very good but no better than Waterford's of the same period and were beaten by a less than stellar Kilkenny minor team in 2014. Most of those lads went to ASR, so also tasted a series of schools losses to Kierans.
What happened them after 18/19 years old, is the vital difference, they entered into a professional coaching set up that is simply on a different planet to other counties.
Would Sean Finn or Flanagan or Hegarty or Nash or either of the Morriseys have become the same brilliant senior players in KK, Galway, Tipp or Cork? No chance. How about David Reidy and Graeme Mulcahy, average players till 6 years ago (Reidy was playing with Kildare back then), neither would have made the Kiilkenny team in 2017/2018, then in the space of two years they are transformed in to top class inter county players. There is always room for the odd rough diamond to be polished, but 7,8 9 or them on the same team?
Putting Limerick's dominance down to simply "a golden crop that will fizzle out" is to ignore other huge factors at play. Limerick havent built a team, they have built a system that can produce outstanding senior players through adavanced coaching backed by finanical resources that we have never seen the like of.
Ye they did but they were not commissioned yet. But that’s besides the point we should have a central complex of up to six to eight pitches two Astro turf, one of which would be floodlit and six other pitches of which two would be floodlit with all the various county teams catered for. There is still ample room in Dunmore for more pitches, considering the land was given to them for a nominal fee then the only exspense incurred is the development really it should be a no brainer this problem needs to be tackled urgently.
I thought O'Loughlins installed floodlights recently.
Think your over egging it to be honest, Limerick's golden period at the moment is based to a large extent around lads born 1994-96 who won the u21 All Ireland's in 2015&17, they'll always be competitive based on their structures that you mentioned but its almost certainly not a permanent thing, its very hard to see them being stopped this year but there period of dominance won't extend further than a couple years in my opinion, there are bringing through good players like Cathal O'Neill and Shane O'Brien but nothing like Lynch, Gillane, Tom Morrissey, Finn and Nash all coming through the 1 calendar year which is freakish stuff, if you think there's another juggernaut coming keep an eye on Cork. Finally on this believe it or not there was people outside Kilkenny at one stage thinking your period of dominance would never end.
On the throwing the ball thing its widespread and to be honest every county is guilty of it Limerick are, my own county is and Kilkenny are. Players are used to referees not policing it so almost conditioned to do it at this point.
As regards to facilities KK is disgraceful. The reason I heard that the Walsh cup wasn’t played in SETU Carlow the other night was because there was Kilkenny team’s training there. Can you credit it that our representatives for the senior club all Ireland have to train in a different county, no wonder we are not winning all irelands.
Entirely agree. Also throw in access to top class facilities that university cities/county teams have at their disposal.
I have been very impressed with Kilkenny seniors s&c under Lyng, as good, if not better than any county, bar Limerick. That's my point, Limerick's level is not attainable at present, not just by Kilkenny, but every county, so it's not fair to just say "lads we must match Limerick physically and in s&c" as if this can easily be achieved with a bit of hard effort. They are as close to a professional set up as makes no difference, their set up now is on a different level to everyone, even the Dubs football squad.
The county structure that served the GAA for over 100 years is now an unequal mess. Limerick and Dublin's senior team expenditure would be 3/4 times that of some counties that are expected to try to beat them, and 20 times that of the real minnows.
Look at proud football counties with great traditions like Cavan and Offaly, not a hope in hell of even getting within an asses roar of All Irelands they for decades proudly competed for and won, now, also rans. I dont see the same happening with us, we still produce excellent hurlers at all ages and grades, but we may have to accept a much lower harvest if the massive financial resources chasm between competing counties is allowed to get further out of control.
And counties raffling houses to raise a million quid to train their senior teams is no long term solution, it's just making the problem worse. A race to the bottom as the big counties will just respond by pumping even more cash in to maintain their dominance.
Hope the kk players don't read this thread. Two posts literally saying limerick are frightening. If a kk team is ever frightened of anyone we may pack it in altogether. And whatever about resources, there's no way a strength and conditioning program is beyond our budget. If we aren't in shape for it there's no acceptable excuse for that. It's up to the county board and the coaching set up to figure it out.
I agree. Our focus needs to be concentrated on the Leinster championship teams. We can only hope that Limerick will eventually be beaten in Munster and then be prepared for every other team.
Regarding throwing the ball, join them is my answer.
Do bear in mind the main commentator was a Clare man; so the throwing it around comment should be taken slightly lightly.
You could say the same about Galway and a few other counties, but for me we are comparing ourselves with Limerick, and I'm sorry, but that level of professionalism, attention to detail and savage s&c progression is unattainable to us and I'd imagine, every other county too.
I think we will go ok this year in all ages, including senior, but we won’t match Limerick’s programme, becauseit's not possible with the resources we have.
If Limerick get beaten this year, it will be a team that can match their skill but out dogs them (note: not outmuscle, because they will not be beaten physically) and a ref that goes hard on Limerick.
Watched Limerick v Clare last night and in fairness the commentator did say that Limerick are literally throwing it around. The co-commentator did say in the second half that noticed a lot more of flicking with the hurl one handed by Limerick. As much as experts like Derek McGrath and Donal Og tell us that throwing isn't an issue, I don't know how anyone can't see how big of an issue it is. There is no skill at all in it and it almost guarantees that a player can carry into contact and still be sure of getting the ball out. Apart from that the condition of the Limerick players is frightening. Looking at the newer Kilkenny players the other night, there has been little or no development either physically or skill wise since they were minors. I think this is the age group from minor to U20 where we are failing. I have watched the current U20s a good bit up through the minor age and it is hard to say any of them have developed physically or hurling wise. I don't know what the solution is but its definitely worrying. If people reflect on their own club players who have been minor and/or U20 over the last 5-10 years have any of them come back to the club a better player?
I'd agree that the conditioning of Kilkenny looked good, but it was a useless game tbh.
Speaking of conditioning, even though it was mostly a 2nd string, Limerick's size and conditioning last night was simply terrifying. I don’t know if they can be beaten for skill, but I do know, ever other county is miles behind them on S&C.
Shane O' Brien was an average build 18-year-old chap when I saw him for ASR in colleges final last year, now he is a well built athlete.
The progression of the Limerick minor team players (many who lined out last night) that were well beaten by KK in 2019 is light years ahead of the comparable players from their Kilkenny equivalents (and light years ahead of the Galway team that was well better than both us and Lim).
Furthermore, Limerick played with the arrogance of a winning set up, shooting from crazy distances and angles and not too worried whether it went over or not, because they knew the next chance would come along very quickly. To emphasize this, Shane O' Brien won MOTM despite shooting 7 wides and fluffing handy goal chance.
Allied to this is a level of professionalism and cynicism in coaching that is streets ahead of all other counties. the physicality to stand up players with just pure strength, and if that doesn’t work, in comes the little tug. Not a big tug, just a little tug to check the momentum of the player in possession. A tug perfected to stall but (usually) not enough to compel the whistle, because they study refs and understand refs are petrified of giving soft frees, especially late in the championship with 40,000 fans on their back for “ruining the game”.
Puck outs taken before the ball is even waved wide to capitalise on opposing teams not been set. Steps and throwing aplenty too (both teams in fairness). the first 3 "handpasses" by Limerick in a triangle last night in 1st min were all blatant throws. I'd imagine that was to test the ref, see what the lie of the land was, and he showed no interest.
Kinnerk knows if this stuff is being largely ignored in Jan/Feb (when refs and rules officials usually try to stamp out stuff), it will be totally ignored come summer. The ref could easily have awarded 50 plus frees last night but Kinnerk (and others too in fairness) know no ref will do this, and they will instead allow minor rule breaches repeatedly to ensure the game "flows" and they dont cop flak. The number of frees awarded for throwing and steps in all matches, declined noticeably the further the 2023 season progressed and was all but absent in closing stages.
This is coaching professionalism and pushing the boundaries like we have never seen in hurling. And when you marry that with serious hurling talent and backed up by huge financial resources, it is ominous for all other counties.
I think the lights affected some players more than others, with them losing sight of the ball. The ball was sticking a bit in the ground with some players taking 3 or 4 attempts to rise it. Billy Drennan scored every free awarded in the second half. I was disappointed that he was switched to corner forward after C Kenny went off injured. As was said, can't read much into the match but we can discuss it.
There is absolutely nothing, positive or negative, to be read into last night. Nothing.
Yeah very little to be gleamed from last night alright. Very strong work rate from the start that the Carlow lads just couldn't match. Everything that went into Billy Ryan he won and the vast majority he did something with, finished with 1-4 I'd say. L Blanchfield was decent and took his goal well that Billy laid on a plate for him, he won a fair bit of ball and caused trouble adding a point from play. C Kenny went off on his first touch of the ball looked like a hamstring maybe, seemed in a fair bit of discomfort hopefully it won't be long term absence. Mossy did well when he came in he harried and tackled and took his point well.
Paul Cody was very good through out and made lots of incisive runs causing endless trouble for Carlow he took his 3 points well. It'll be interesting to see how he goes the next day against Wexford. Billy Drennan was really quite poor he offered very little from general play and the things you would expect him to do he failed at. Timmy Clifford made a great run in the first half and laid of the ball perfectly to Drennan and he blasted it wide, he missed free's I'd expect him to make but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt with the conditions. He'll need to seriously up his work rate if he wants to maintain a place for the league. Timmy Clifford was decent in patches particularly at the start of the second half he was on everything. He covered a massive amount of ground and a lot of it he didn't end up with the ball or passed to others. He got on the end of Cody's goal chance and tipped in over the line (not Ted Dunne as the media is reporting) he took a nice point as well but missed some too.
David Blanchfield replaced Killian Doyle from the start and played well as you'd expect. Kevin Blanchfield did well at the start but little errors and poor decisions started to effect his game, will hope for more on a better day.
Paul Hennebry grew into the game the longer it went on and went on a few charging runs toward goal a good start to his KK career. D Corcoran was solid and held the centre fairly well but he had D Blanch with him most of the time so not too hard especially given the Carlow performance. Joe Fitz did well and I thought he was unlucky to be subbed but Paddy Langton is a similar player and both did well on the right wing, neither seem to want to go forward like Hennebry did.
The full back line had very little to do Shane Murphy and P Moylan seemed to venture up the field a small bit looking for work. Niall Rowe covered off the big Carlow FF well, except once when he got a flick on a wayward shot, that was dropping short and wide. Darren Brennan covered the chance well. Nothing else to be read into the FB line other than there will be stiffer tests ahead. Rowe seemed to be quite vocal in organising the defence for puckouts which was good to see from a young lad.
Darren Brennan did well under a lot of high ball, dropping short into the goal mouth and as said previously his puckouts were good.
Subs: Mossy mentioned already,
Billy Reid replaced K Blanchfield and struggled a bit to start with but got into the game without imposing himself picked off two nice points though.
Paddy Langton mentioned above did well at wing back.
Gilly as predicted got 30 mins. He did well and brought real pace to the attack he's a bit lost when it breaks down but he threatened the Carlow goal a good few times and he took his goal smartly on the rebound.
Ted Dunne did ok and won a bit of ball but didn't do a huge amount with it.
B Hughes was ok, Andy Hickey the same.
Dennis Walsh did well wearing 8 instead of Killian Doyle and took his goal very confidently, no panic.
I wouldn't judge anyone too harshly on last night and most only had a positive game given the level Carlow were at. Billy Drennan is a bit of a worry for me, especially if we're hoping he's going to make a step up in the levels. It was a game made for him to cut loose but there's lots more time to go and I'm hoping he'll raise his performances going forward.
Good win last night but Carlow looked exceptionally bad, I know they were only back from the team holiday on Wednesday but they did look really really poor! As Todd_UnctiousGael said we looked well drilled and tried to do the right thing, Billy Ryan was excellent, took his goal well and got some nice points. Paul Cody looked impressive and he seems to have improved again on some decent outings last year. I thought Darragh Corcoran looked comfortable at centre back so hopefully he'll get the league there to nail down the spot. Thought Darren Brennan did well in the goals too, his puckouts were good even if he wasn't too troubled other than that. Can't read too much into last nights game but our fitness levels looked very good and they're trying to do the right things hopefully as lads start coming back and the opposition gets better we'll stick at it and get results!
Big difference between the teams. Kilkenny well drilled for early Jan. Joe Fitzpatrick, Darragh Corcoran, and David Blanch getting on plenty of ball in backs. Billy Ryan looks sharp
I would disagree with you on your last sentence. Yes Buckley is very committed but others have served their time and were just as committed when they were in the setup and maybe in their own minds they didn't a get a fair crack, especially when your own club man was in charge.
Evan Cody has probably spent 4-5 years of the last 9 on Kilkenny panels, dropped this year.
Aidan Nolan and Tom Kenny did a couple of pre-seasons and leagues with Kilkenny and were dropped.
Bill Sheehan has had 3 or so years with Kilkenny panels but didn't survive past the league either.
Last year P Moylan was cut after the Walsh Cup and worked hugely hard since and has improved a ton and is back in the setup again this year.
Timmy Clifford and Niall Rowe gave the whole year to the Senior and U20 setup. Their both back in with the seniors at the minute, along with Harry Shine.
Cillian Hackett was called but was injured and missed his chance this year by the sounds of it.
As far as I'm aware Liam Moore wasn't called in this year or last and I would say he was probably a small bit below the level needed to be called in. He can easily get to the level if he wants too. He has loads of hurling, the size, power and pace, from what I've heard Liam doesn't like to take hurling overly serious and that's fair enough. If he wanted to apply himself fully to it, he would likely be a part of solving the midfield puzzle for Kilkenny for the next 7-8 years. However he doesn't currently seem to want to give up his life to hurling and to be honest with the level of commitment needed to play at intercounty these days, I can't say I blame him. If he is doing it consistently for the Boro, he'll be in with the county and if he wants to, the opportunity is there for him.
A few Boro lads were called in under Cody, some left with a poor experience from what I've heard. I'd be hopeful that the current crop of underage talent will provide a few players to the Kilkenny setup for a good few years to come. Intercounty is not for everyone and the Boro often stuggle to keep players after they leave college, as many go into demanding jobs and they can't find the time for the club, let alone the county. This is a shame in my opinion but it's a reality the club need to try and change.
Other Boro players to get the call in, in the last 10 years would include Michael Fagan, Robbie Fitzpatrick, Conor Doheny and Andy Gaffney. Fagan was dropped early enough, the other three were injured (or struggled with long term injuries) the years they got the call (2017 and 2023). Fagan and Doheny definitely had the ability to make the grade but they weren't called again for whatever reason.
When called, the Boro players answered the call. All but Buckley didn't make the grade for whatever reason, an underlying bias that "Boro lads" just aren't good enough, tough enough, might have been an issue previously. The only Boro lads who haven't answered the call are Andy Gaffney last year, he went in, tried to do the level of training but he's long term injuries started to catch up with him and he dropped himself, when he realised it wasn't possible. Tom Kenny was asked the last two year and as I've said on here numerous times he has his own reasons for not accepting but he accepted before and I suspect it was he's poor experience at that time that put him off the idea of intercounty hurling. He has tried it and committed to Kilkenny but it didn't work out.
Name me the Boro player that has been called into the setup, that didn't at some point fully commit to the Kilkenny panel? There are none that I'm aware of.
On but now changed to Netwatch Cullen Park and 7:45 throw in, not 8pm in SETU.
You can get **** weather pretty much any time of the year in Ireland, if my memory serves me right there was club games played in KK on a Friday evening in late August in horrendous rain and probably shouldn't have went ahead.
Fancy their chances? From what I heard , they really enjoyed themselves out on holidays. Kilkenny , although they haven't much hurling done should be able to run them off the pitch to be fair. These are the games where anyone hoping for gametime in the league really needs to put their hands up.
Really looking forward to the coming 2 monthe to see what the management can tweak from last year to improve things. Looking forward to seeing a bit more leg in the team.....hopefully!!
Maher is finished as far as county hurling goes problems with the knee he had the farm accident a couple of years ago.
It's on again according to Kilkenny gaa website 🙄
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