Correct. Which is why we have a standing army, such as it is. And no doubt volunteers would bolster ranks, assuming they don't shoot their own feet off. And assuming we had arms to give them.
However if people chose to stay at home, or leave the country with their families, they would be taken in as refugees and given comfort by other nations. As is their legal right to do so, agreed by all.
But I bristle at the hubris, bluster and hot air who think those who choose the second option are lesser, or repugnant. Which is what this comes down to. We've had enough wars caused by the removed flippancy of old men, and condemning those who choose not to die in a ditch are the worst kind of paper tigers.
With respect, do you not see the fundamental incompatibility in your response?? You say it's OK to flee war and not defend your country on one hand and then praise the efforts of those who did in the next breath. Hypocrisy.
As for @pixelburp assertion above, I'll have you know than my grandparents who went to the trenches of WW1 were not conscripted. There was no conscription in Ireland during WW1 - no, they answered the call and enlisted. They were otherwise peaceful men prepared to defend against the march of the German, Austrian Hungarian & Turkish empires. Just as Ukrainians are now needed and are indeed morally obliged to defend against the expanding Russian empire.
As for me, I regard our generation as very lucky not to have been sucked into a major European conflict. But you can be damn sure, that if we were that I would have done my duty as a citizen to help defend Ireland. And I would expect nothing less of anyone else.
There's no incompatibility. There is a choice.
I congratulate you for your outlook Furze, though saying something and doing it are completely different things, and I'm sure you'll be the first person to give a white feather to your sons and relatives should they not share your ideals.
Moving away from the debate about deporting refugees to a country that still has millions of able bodied people capable of taking up arms against putin's aggression the Dutch have put a number on their initial delivery of F-16s to Ukraine:
I'd be thinking they can have it. Kerry too. 😉
Well, it's only Cork. I mean, they all stayed in bed in 1916 so why should they expect the rest of us to defend it. Its an awful shitehole, in fairness.
Dulce et Decorum est
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer,
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Well , it depends on who is attacking it. If it was any country /group bar Russia I would help in defending Cork to the last as there is always hope of victory. BUT, BUT if it was Russia, I would leave it have Russia on the condition that it would never try to attack another county !
And he has a problem understanding why Russians don't just rise up, march on the Kremlin and get rid of Putin and his henchmen. I mean like, same as the Irish did in 1916.
You don't live in reality
Humans come in in all shapes sizes and mentally
We have hired a few Ukrainians and out of the 6 i would think 1 could be of use to the Ukrainian military
The other 5 are like little mice
There is no way they could handle battlefield conditions, its probably why there family's arranged for them or themselves to leave Ukraine
Not everyone is cut out for war, being a keyboard warrior doesn't make you tough
I didn't think of all the (hot) takes I'd ever read, it'd someone enthusiastically cheering WW1 as somehow emblematic of the glory of "defending your country".
Wilfred Owen, as quoted by @scottser would be appalled, had he not himself died on the last day(?) of the war during a pointless assault among the thousands of other pointless assaults across 4 years of waste.
What is all this anti immigrant shite. Most of us in here **** love Ukraine. They are heroes. After this is war is over and they join the EU they can flood the place with themselves assuming our **** government have fixed the housing crisis.
It's pretty black and white. I want Ukraine to win at all costs.
If they ask EU countries for economic aid they should get it.
If they ask for military aid they should get it and more.
If they ask for certain segments of their population back they should get it. Why should Ukrainians still in Ukraine have to undergo mandatory conscription but not those we're helping abroad.
Feel free to disagree whether or not Ukraine should get economic, military or help in terms of manpower. But don't insult me with this anti immigrant shite.
Ukraine to win at all costs and whatever fhet want I say they should get.
Unfortunately the Ukrainians here and around the EU have international protection and won't be going anywhere regardless of who asks ,
Laws are there to be changed and I for one hope this law is. It's a fucked up law when you think about it in terms of Ukraine. Some situations it makes sense.
Anyway enough of this shite talk. Today is a day for celebration with 3 russian fighter jets falling out of the sky. Happy Christmas Putin.
It's a remarkable segue and deeply instructive that as much as history has taught us the repugnancy of war and the damage it does to people - name checking the one war that finally engrained the psychological strain - old men will still click their tongues that the young might value their own hides instead of itching to grab a rifle.
Because that's not how international law works, no matter how it's phrased. And not have Ukraine asked to have their population shopped back - because ... well. It really shouldn't need explaining why the mass expulsion of a nationality is a bad precedent to set.
There not going to change any laws to suit Ukraine, and if they started demanding people who have been given international protection be returned to be sent to their deaths in a trench,they will quickly alienate supporters,they could damage their application to join the EU one day ,
There's no contradiction in those two positions. You can admire someone for doing something while acknowledging that not everyone has the courage or ability to do that thing. I admire the people who work in hospices greatly but I know that a substantial portion of the population, myself included, could not do that work and that's OK. You appear to be reacting as if that poster had claimed that both sets of Ukrainians were heroes.
No civilised country would deport people if they thought they were going to be immediately conscripted to fight in an active war. Your whole stance is bizarre. It makes sense that it's drive by an ulterior motive as suspected by other posters.
It's amazing how Ukrainians lives are the sacrafice some key board warrior here are willing to make.
We know it from our own history, there are those with no dreams of combat who'll then prove most able operatives in defence of their communities.
They dont have to fight in the frontlines though. Conscription for example in ww2 Britain for example didnt just mean combat action. It could be any essential role.
It is complex. On the one hand it means Ukraine has less civilians to worry about. On the other, Ukraine needs all the capable people it has.
The Ukrainians have no choice really. Stay and fight or let the Russians in to rape pillage rob and kill them in cold blood..
And that may well be the case, but those 5/6 men if that's what they are, could well be useful serving support roles in Ukraine. For every front line soldier, many are needed for a whole range of tasks in wartime. That's where they should be, so that when Ukraine eventually prevails, they can look their fellow citizens in the eye and know they did their bit. What's their options if they don't go back? Can they ever go back? Is that their plan?
I don't believe they have been given 'international protection' - they are war refugees with the added benefit initially at lease of status similar to EU citizens. But what is your true position Gatling? On the one hand, you often decry the slow supply of weapons and munitions to Ukraine. But on the other, you are opposed to helping them manage the personnel they require in order to operate such weapons. Kind of a large questionable contradiction there ???????
You're not wrong I'm just giving my opinion on what should happen. Laws change over time and I wouldn't be surprised if Europe is ruled by far right parties in 20 years. It's trending that way.
Now I don't support most far right ideologies but these are the type of people who would change laws like that.
It's a real shame for Ukraine they're going to lose a lot of man power. Maybe they can convince those abroad to return and do tasks that don't involve fighting on the front lines. Every little helps.
I'm the type of guy who thinks NATO should have immediately responded to this invasion by defending Ukraine within Ukraine. The war would be over by now. Why a country is facing obliteration I don't have much time for laws that hinder a countries very survival.
Let me guess they were made up during different times after WW2 when the West thought there'd be no more wars. It makes no sense for a country like Ukraine. Russia the aggressor is benefiting from these laws.
But know fmd you can volunteer for me and more Ukrainian people you who is so full of righteousness and zeal for war and men to fight against Russia your just the candidate for the job.......
Are you a Russia bot btw? Do you want Ukraine to win? Do you not realise Ukrainians who are in Ukraine might not have no choice in terms of conscription. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for the same Ukrainians being looked after abroad.
International law is clearly flawed.
https://youtu.be/EYNnty0iKZQ?si=_-FJeKrxwILI7vgH
Military summary channel v cool not biased just calls it as it is very interesting video for both sides
And if Ukraine dropped the recruitment age to 15 would you still support it?
What if it was the war in Syria instead and Assad was calling on all countries to expel their Syrian refugees?
Or what if Putin did the same?
So much flawed thinking.
To further on the thinking of deportation of Ukrainians.
What then happens to the Russians resident in this country?
How would it be just if Ukrainians are sent home and Russians continue to enjoy the perks of this state?
The whole premise is one of evilness towards Ukrainian refugees. If you want to make a difference lobby your politicians for military aid to be sent and lobby for the expulsion of the Russian embassy. Even personal aid can be directed for military equipment in Ukraine.
I said it ten years ago and and I said it two years ago if NATO stepped in straight away we wouldn't have had this war or the invasion and occupation of Crimea back then, and even now it's looking more likely that NATO may have to put boots on the ground because it seems Ukraine are struggling , like the Russians they are taking heavy losses they have units in trenches 18 months and no rotating out, along with the other issues I keep raising people on the from lines with not even the most basic of essential kit for soldiers fighting a multi year war ,cold weather gear and clothing,socks and underwear, winter boots, ballistic helmets and plate carriers and including the sapi plates, they have received billions in military and financial aid from the EU/NATO and the US and further afield,but yet units are begging on social media for people to donate the basics they aren't getting,
Were back to F16s but they won't change a thing if they won't supply the men and women in the trenches with proper equipment first , this time last year we were all laughing at the poor kit the Russians had while bigging up the winter kit coming from NATO , where is all of this kit ,and where is the billions being spent not going on the lads and women in the trenches...
Would you be happy to be told that you have to leave a safe country to return to those conditions.
Something isn't right in Ukraine and changes are needed or before things get worse
Lol, not biased? 😅 Anyone who thinks this channel isn't pro Russian horse manure needs their f**cken eyes checked.
Not to mention his video titles are pure scuttery clickbait.
What have Russians here got to do with it? The equivalence would be if Russia demanded them back and since they're the aggressor we should tell them to **** off.
And what you on about evilness. So are Ukraine evil if they force conscription on the very same Ukrainians still in Ukraine. Your definition of evil is flawed.
@Gatling
Agreed and NATO imo should still enter western Ukraine. Take up positions across the entire border between Ukraine and Belarus. Bring their best air defence units with them while they're at it. Free up Ukrainian resources to be focused on the front. Sadly I fear the West want a long drawn out war to inflict maximum damage on Russia. They'll keep giving them just enough.
@Padre_Pio I already addressed that weird correlation with Russia. What's needed is the ability to act on a case by case basis. These laws are too rigid and lack flexibility. They're outdated.
Ukraine is an out and out ally. We should want them to win. They are fighting a war they can realistically win. Why discriminate against Ukrainians we took in abroad Vs Ukrainians in Ukraine. It's a fucked up law that lacks equality.
And in this case Ukraine doesn't just need front line soldiers. It's a no brainer to answer their call for help.
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