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The nasty side to teaching

mtoutlemonde

I didn't want to derail the thread with the OP asking whether to get into teaching or not so u started this thread - I suppose it's cathartic.

I've been teaching for a long time and as is the norm, did a lot of subbing in many schools. Some of these were great schools which I would loved to have stayed but that's life.

However I have seen and experienced absolutely dreadful behaviour in a professional setting, some of which we dont condone from our students.

Like others in that thread, I hand on heart couldn't recommend teaching to anyone due to two year PME, pay scales, part time hours for years, waiting for the phone to ring, botched interviews etc.

Then when you get the job and management f step in with the power trip - deciding your classes, subjects, don't back you with parents, humiliate, facilitate others with handy timetables while destroying yours where you pick up the slack. Don't get started on posts which have destroyed any collegiality.

I have seen teachers hounded in the workplace, humiliared, poor mental health, taking early retirement, career breaks etc.

Why do we allow this to happen?

I used to love getting up to go to school but I just dread it now because of having to communicate with management who have no idea what they are doing and are out to get you. I would love to go elsewhere and start afresh but redeployment is limited and I can't give up a very hard earned CID for a leap of faith at a fixed term contract.

The huge positive - the interaction with students and getting to understand your subject a little every day. The thank you at the end of the year. Meeting students years after school and seeing where they are now and reminiscing of their days in school. The kind words from parents are also nice.

Now that probably looks like a rant :) What can the normal Joe do?

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Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496501#Comment_121496501

Firstly it is not taxpayers paying for the Teaching Council, it is teachers themselves. Ans secondly the Teaching Council are not some sort of service for cranks who don't like teachers.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121502456#Comment_121502456

I dont think its appropriate to refer to parents/students who lodge a complaints with the TC as "cranks" - the whole reason teaching exists is for the benefit of the students.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121502447#Comment_121502447

Yep....that's the ridiculous nonsense it's descending into

WWMRD

I could have written this myself. I went back in 2010 to do PGDE and in the last 13 years the changes that have occured are scaring me. I dont know if I will get to retirement age doing this as a job....but the way that it is going job share might be the way out!

spurious

I'm sorry, I laughed at the date on the board comment. So true.

csirl

The BOM influence on appointing people to posts of responsibility seems to be a big issue in many schools. In my wifes school its effectively a closed shop. Unless you"ve a connection with one of the BOM, you've no hope.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513156#Comment_121513156

Once that notion gets in , teachers who previously would have applied will look at the vacant notice and chuckle.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513566#Comment_121513566

There was one occassion in my wife's school where a staff member brazenly told a couple of other staff who'd applied for a post nor to bother turning up for the interview as she was on a promise!

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513711#Comment_121513711

Happening in every school. The interviews are being rigged for the favourites who leave an apple on the principal's desk every morning.

gaiscioch

Does anybody know how, in fact, timetabling is done? I was told I am with 6 or so other teachers and that if I want to adjust my timetable they would have to change the other teachers in my group. Is that true?

ottolwinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513727#Comment_121513727

It’s a stretch to say it’s every school. Maybe a minority. I know people in jobs teaching and otherwise who although capable haven’t interviewed well and in fact weakened their capabilities at interview by the poor answers they gave, being funny out if nerves etc. ive been in situations interviewing possible candidates for jobs where I know they can do the job but they haven’t convinced the rest of a panel of interviewers. Decisions have to be unanimous and full transparency is available should it be required

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515884#Comment_121515884

It is most definitely NOT a stretch. In the vast majority of schools the interviews are rigged. I know of a school where excellent teachers of 25+ years experience are being overlooked for teachers with less than 5 years experience, and then subsequently humiliated with "advice" on how to improve after their 6th or 7th interview. Sometimes they're being interviewed by shysters in their early to mid 30s who know nothing.

The Ps and DPs who engage in this practice are sick. Not only are they stupid (as they divide their staff) but they don't give a **** about their school or their students.

You've interviewed candidates where you "know they can do the job"?. . . . Gimme a break - you make it sound as if these are posts are at NASA.

There's no full transparency as you well know. The totalling of the points is easily rigged in favour of the chosen candidate and "transparency" or appeal is only applicable if the points happened to be totalled up wrong [which given the quality of management these days is probably not a bad thing].

ottolwinner

I have to disagree with you. Years doing a job doesn’t guarantee someone should get a post. If they are being given advice on how for the 6th/7th interview as you mention they need to factor that into their interviewing ability.

I can’t go into details of where I’ve been on panels for interviewing but some positions would have been for roles where life and death was on the line. 25+ years doing something isn’t always the most important criteria.

in fact the more years experience someone has the more the stronger a hand they should have in terms of experiences they can call on as examples of why they get a job.

I understand you’re passionate on the topic but you can’t make mad statements that interviews are being rigged and bring an apple expecting it to be treated as fact. It’s simply not.

there’s more to interviewing results than points scoring and if someone wants to appeal they can. Plenty of interview coaches will tell you exactly on what grounds to appeal.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516075#Comment_121516075

What I'm stating is fact. The interview panels should be brought to an end (most of you on them are onto a nice little earner btw so no wonder you're trying to portray integrity and professionalism). Seniority should be returned. It was a system that worked, a system that didn't have principals playing teachers off each other, a system which brought no backbiting and backstabbing and a system which rewarded teachers for their service and experience and not because they're the local GAA guy or known to someone on the panel.

ottolwinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516122#Comment_121516122

It appears to me that if it’s not to your liking you’re very quick to make out it’s all wrong. I would definitely be noting that it any interview if you happened to be interviewing.

its a pity you’re so assuming that cash changes hands for these roles on panels. I haven’t interviewed in educational setting and have no knowledge if there are payments for such. In the private sector where I have interviewed no payment was made. It’s a pity you make so many assumptions and direct accusations because it helps form opinions of you. Maybe why you’re aggrieved by these interviews.

Anyhow I’m not arguing black is white with you. Get yourself a mirror for that. Good luck.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516122#Comment_121516122

The problem with seniority is that posts become a sinecure for worn-out teachers or lazy feckers who had 'done their time.' When seniority was an important factor in interviews there were chancers who had never taught a full week being handed year-head positions, which they proceeded to approach the same way they had approached teaching.

The current system is far from perfect but at least it's transparent. There is some effort to acknowledge merit and hard work.

drserious4

Interesting points above.

I agree with one poster - children are constantly on holidays these days.

Children missing for a week of school here, a week of school there, to go to the Canaries (in November when it's cheap, for example) or a few days away midweek in Centre Parks or Lapland or anywhere else that takes their fancy is becoming exceptionally common.

Parents will look for work for their children to do over the span of the holiday (and then generally not do it).

I just wonder - in general, has people's work ethic suffered and is this affecting how they view their child's education as well?

Maybe it was Covid, or maybe it predates that. I just think that people are constantly looking for reasons to get a day off work for any old reason and children are constantly missing school for equally unimportant reasons.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516199#Comment_121516199

I have indeed seen hard working teachers get promoted under the new system. I've also seen lazy teachers get promoted simply because they're drinking buddies of the principal. I've seen hardworking teachers who are hardworking OUTSIDE the classroom and skiving off from the job they're paid to do - TEACH. This, apparently, is what is known as "leadership". The best teachers are the hardworking ones and whilst it is the case that teachers become tired as they get older (this is inevitable for EVERY teacher) they also become more experienced.

The appointment process for AP1 and AP2 posts is just an appalling disgrace.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516158#Comment_121516158

So let me be clear here. . . . In your 25+ years experience of interviewing you have never received any payment for acting as an interviewer?

Sheep breeder

Come across this thread, as a parent view, when your children talk about a teacher you get a mental picture of them and like last week went to fifth year PT meeting, and they were exactly as I had them in my head, the teachers that knew the child inside out and were able to tell how they were progressing in that subject, the waffler who hadn’t got time yet to correct the last two class exams and was out with the sports teams and missed half the classes so far and was friendly with the principal, the teacher who told us her door is open at lunchtime and stays back in her class for extra hour on Wednesday and anything that student wanted to ask call. The teacher who was nervous and hadn’t much to say and the one that can’t control the class and gets very little work done and our girl’s subject she is falling behind in. Last year our other daughter done leaving cert German and we had to met the principal several times about homework being put up at 10 o’clock at night( 5 other parents also) due to the teacher being so poor and struggling to speak the language. The principal attitude was the teacher was doing so much for the school gaa teams and would look into it.

ottolwinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516289#Comment_121516289

Where do I mention 25+ years interviewing?

For your tally taking no. I’ve never received payment for being on an interview panel or interviewing candidates for jobs. I do it for giving back to SMEs, self employed business looking to expand, emerging businesses who can’t afford the time or costs associated with hiring.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516273#Comment_121516273

I think COVID put things into a different light for parents. If kids can miss large chunks of school then a day or two doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Families have had tough times and taking a break when they can afford it can be beneficial. We also keep our kids home more often these days when they have colds, levels of sickness where we would have sent them in before COVID they are kept home now.

Are you going to complain about teachers doing the same thing and missing days and weeks during the term because they are on holiday?

Teaching is not an easy job, btw. I am not for a second implying that, not that it is okay for kids to miss large chunks of school, but a day or two, especially at lower level primary, isn't the end of the world

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516611#Comment_121516611

This is a thread on teaching. The interviews I'm referring to are AP1 and AP2 post of responsibility interviews that mainly occur between a principal and usually another principal and a member of a BoM - all of whom are paid separately. I don't know why you think that's the same as you volunteering your services in an entirely different sector for SMEs.

Icsics

When seniority went collegiality went in our staff room. For sure, the old system was flawed but the current system where the post is in the gift of the P is even worse! Dress it up however u like, Ps are picking & promoting their favourites. All he needs is an obliging Chair of the BOM…which they always are, that’s why they hold the position for years.

Crakepottle?

Promoted teachers being deliberately and systematially undermined so that they will retire and their posts will become available to people of the Principal's choice. Primary school children having their futures totally undermined because their teacher is being subjected to abusive and disgraceful treatment! Parents do not have a clue what is going on, and frequently in schools with a Catholic ethos and everything that is supposed to represent. An absolute disgrace!

2011abc

Coupled with the effective loss of the right to appeal the new posts system is an utter joke .I think in many cases youngish, forty something principals like the idea of having younger people 'beneath' them and are insecure about older staff as AP1s etc .The logical conclusion is that some backstabbing kid just out of college will be a typical Year Head in the 2030s .The old system may have let the occasional 'weak link' through the system but it was far better than this shambles which has installed a glass ceiling ,seeing solid ,older teachers being passed over repeatedly for the last five years now .

Its not that much of an exaggeration I reckon to say if you dont start on your leadership/management 'upskilling' fresh out of college (when you should be focussng on finding your feet in the classroom)you will now be similarly bypassed .And how many teachers do you think will survive 40-50 years to claim mediocre pensions ?The teachers' career path has been completely knocked out of kilter .Either become a DP or find a second career seems to be the choice if we are to continue to mimic UK system .Over 45 classrooms teachers close to extinct there and soon to be so here also.

spurious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515199#Comment_121515199

As I understand it, the various programmes out there to support timetabling (though some people still do it with little plastic blocks) require all your restrictions and immovable feasts to be put in at the start. If you are in a subject or banded grouping with 6 others, what affects one will affect all six, yes. It depends how your timetable maker has set it up. Every school is different.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517727#Comment_121517727

Agree with this. What is happening in (secondary) teaching in Ireland is that the teachers earmarked for promotion are those that lick the principal's arse and routinely take time out of their classroom duties (i.e. NOT teaching) to take on PR events that "promote" the school. These PR events are otherwise known as "showing leadership". What's more is that many of these teachers take students out of classes of the real teachers in the school to promote their own pet projects that they hope principal will notice.

I heard of a school in Dublin where the principal promoted a lot of young female teachers to posts, thus overlooking or ignoring their more experienced colleagues. A number of these teachers became pregnant at the same time and the principal was left asking for the teachers he ignored to take on their roles whilst they went on maternity leave.

It's an absolute shambles what's going on.

ottolwinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516791#Comment_121516791

Well aware of the thread thanks. I work in education now and in case you forgot the reason i responded to your post was the huge generalisation you made that all posts are rigged and that it was fact. You can’t claim it to be unless you’ve the evidence no matter how much you want to shout people down with your sensationalisation.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518700#Comment_121518700

Perhaps I'll ask you again so. . . . Have you ever been paid for being an interviewer at an AP1 or AP2 interview?