I dont get that idea.
How do you take it from POM after a year unless he is retiring? Either he is playing well enough to be still a starter and you're 'stripping' him of the captaincy or he isn't playing well and the team has had to deal with him being kept as a starter when it isn't deserved due to the title or we're facing the drama of the captain being dropped.
It is a much easier transition for one of the younger players to take on the captaincy now with a clean slate post Sexton than under the likely extremely toxic environment of it being given to them after it being taken away from POM.
If it was a must win game tomorrow, POM would be the logical choice for me, but I’d agree with Foxtrol that they’d be kicking the can down the road and creating an unwelcome talking point if they wanted to change captain in a couple of years.
On the other hand we know how much Farrell puts on people as individuals (eg bringing Earls to the World Cup and making big deals of players landmark caps) and POM would be absolutely deserving to lead Ireland into a 6N as captain. Farrell may want to give him that opportunity.
Henderson is an option but his injury record might go against him as does the competition in the second row. I’d probably give it to Ryan in the knowledge he’ll be supported by the likes of Henderson and POM. My only concern is that his performance level seemed to be affected by being captain in the past although injuries no doubt were playing a roll as was the form of the team immediately post Schmidt.
i thought POM was one our better players against NZ. He was definitely our best back row. Doris and VdF had games they’d rather forget i’d say.
I don’t know if he would be a good captain, but Ireland doesn’t make decisions based on world cups 4 years away. We try to win the 6 nations every single time. We were barely willing to use 6 nations or autumn internationals for development 1/2 years before world cups. There is no way we would do it 4 years out.
So, if he wants to keep playing international rugby.. he will as long as he is the best right now.
There really isn’t a back row coming up as good in the lineout as POM. Maybe Niall Murray but he’s a lock. Deegan possibly fits that mold. There are guys who are as hyper aggressive at the breakdown but its a hard combination of skills to get in one player.
Prendergast is a vital component in the Connacht lineout. He is the closest thing to POM.
Yea, good call. He probably represents the closest match.
Hello Peter……go back and look at the tape.
POM's contract is up at the end of the 2024 season, he may very well intend this to be his last season playing. I really don't see a problem with him captaining the side for a 6N and a SA tour. Even if he isn't retiring, I don't think anyone, including POM would get their nose out of joint if it was known upfront that he's taking it for that period and then it'll be reassessed for the longer term. But I reckon he'll be retiring at the end of his current contract, so what's the harm?
As I've already said, if Farrell is using this to bridge the gap between Sexton and the next RWC captain then POM makes sense.
If Farrell is nominating a captain to take the squad up to and including RWC 2027 then I think POM is out of the running.
There is unfortunately absolutely a sizeable population of toxic fans, media, and Patreon 'Analysts' who would completely lose their minds if POM was stripped of the captaincy while still being in the squad, especially if the captaincy was given to a player from another province.
I’ve watched the match three times and he was definitely the best back row.
If we are basing everything on that one game, then doris and vdf have more to worry about it. Of course that would be silly. Like choosing guys based on a world cup 4 years away.
POM in general is a good litmus test for a type of rugby fan who can only see the obvious stuff. Like the people who think Doris is ‘worse’ at 6. He has a less visible role at 6. He has been fantastic when played there.
Being fair, I would be surprised if POM was brought to SA. We should go all out to win the tour imo, and I think he'll be surpassed by then by lads like Baird, Prendergast, Coombes possibly.
Coombes can jump but never in his life has he played a similar role to POM in any side. That would be a crazy one for one replacement.
Prendergast is the closest in terms of fit, but POM is still a better player by a good bit. Doris would work well there too but doris would be great at 6 or 7 in our system.
Baird is a bit of a confusing one to me. They almost sometimes seem to want to not to play him. For me he’s the most talented guy on that list.
Anyway, if POM is fit i doubt anyone surpasses him in actual performance this year.
Don't see many/any are saying to pick for a WC 4 years away, just that picking a captain for a year has more negatives tied to it than positives.
Even the claimed benefits of making POM captain for the short term are extremely nebulous, and even then most of them POM should still be able to do as good or better while not being captain, as Buer noted.
If you’re right about POM vs. NZ, we better find a completely new backrow quickly. He had as much impact on the game as I had.
The guy i was replying to did say he shouldn’t even be in the squad.
I personally would pick Ryan as captain but POM wouldn’t be crazy.
This sounds like the definition of the sunk cost fallacy, or at least potentially.
Ryan is a good player but was literally dropped at the business end of the RWC and his lineout calling has repeatedly been shown up as below the standard required at the elite level. Not to mention being overlooked by the Lions due to his lack of physicality gives an impression of a player who still has room to grow to reach a world class level.
Beirne and Henderson are also fine players at any given time may be the chosen starters over him as they were recently. There's also a number of promising second rows coming through like McCarthy, Edogbo or Ahern who may at some point in the cycle be considered starters.
Given all the doubts nailing colours to the mast for Ryan at this stage would be a poor decision that could lead to an uncomfortable Sam Cane type situation.
POM is 34 and in an attritional position so I'd be very surprised if he wasn't in his last season or two. Given his experience and current status in the team he would make the most sense for captaincy for a season or two after which the natural successor might be a bit clearer.
Eh? Wasn't Ryan injured (hand) for the business end of the RWC?
I think the myth of Ryan's poor lineout calling was busted when he was unavailable for the New Zealand game, yet we still struggled with Henderson and Beirne.
It was as much a systems failing as anything else which our coaches need to accept a substantial portion of the blame.
We also missed his work at the breakdown. There's no forward in Ireland better at blitzing a ruck.
He came off the bench in the Scotland game.
I'd be surprised if he didn't start the NZ game had he been fit though.
That was it, cheers. I presumed business end meant the NZ game though, but mileage may vary I suppose. On the bench anyway, so not dropped. Then not available due to injury from the hand injury in the Scotland game. So not dropped.
How was Irelands line out so poor in the world cup with Pete o'Mahony the world's greatest line out operator in the team?
Bad coaching by head kicker O'Connell.
Plumtree doesn't look too hot as a head coach for the Sharks at the moment, but he was a brilliant lineout (and maul) coach for Ireland.
Ah yes, the good old "knowledgeable rugby fans see what I see, I see things that other fans don't"
You're not some "higher level" of rugby fan for knowing that POM is good at the breakdown
The fact is that in the last game that Ryan was available for he was on the bench. Therefore no one can say with any certainty that he is nailed on in the team. The same players he was competing with at the WC will still be about for at least half the next WC cycle, if not the whole thing, and in McCarthy and possibly Ahern and whoever else emerges there will be even more players putting him under pressure.
If we want to pick someone who is as close as guaranteed a spot in the team then pick Keenan as captain. That doesn't seem viable for a number of reasons so personally I'd choose Ringrose. Otherwise pick O'Mahony for a year or so while Ryan nails down his spot or someone like Sheehan is ready to take the job.
Yea, you are massively overrating the observation powers of the average fan.
The whole Doris at 6 thing is the perfect example of that. He looks better at 8 just means ‘i notice him carry the ball more’. That’s it. Have they compared his different involvements in those roles? Or how he performs in those involvements?
Almost all rugby analysis is very superficial. The actual numbers that coaches would look at when selecting or analyzing performance are very rarely talked about publicly. Its all vibes.
POM playing badly in the NZ game is this same thing. What does that even mean? Was he slower to the breakdown? Less effective cleans? Nah, vibes.
Whilst I personally have no issue with Beirne or Henderson being in any Ireland team at the moment, I feel Ryan kinda is the most choosable of those three. He's been ahead of Henderson pretty consistently - or at least it seems that way, I haven't looked up the stats - and I realise that Henderson has has his injury problems which makes a comparison problematic - and Beirne is a different animal to Hendo/Ryan so he's complementary rather than directly competing with. For Leinster, Ryan is one of the first names on the sheet if he's fit.
I took exception to one of the posts above because he wasn't dropped and frankly a lot of the rest of the post was bizarre.
Anyone calling Ryan's game to be lacking in physicality hasn't been watching him play since the Lions tour (which didn't feature lots of players people thought deserved it but did feature ... Adam ... Beard, a real talent in the second row and AWJ who whilst a past great was absolutely not in the top two on second row play alone, he got in for 'leadership appreciated by Gatland'). Him going off injured was one of the main reasons Leinster didn't win last year's HC final. He was smashing people in the tackle and the ruck. There's absolutely truth to Ryan going through a period where his form wasn't good at all, and it centred around when the Lions decisions were made. He started off in fantastic form for both Ireland and Leinster, then had a year and a half or so where he just wasn't up to that standard and has come back very strong since then. He's worked on the physical aspect and is now one of the bigger hitters in the Irish squad. The lineout calling, particularly at the WC, isn't limited to Ryan, the lineout was a mess and there were several others on the field - who aren't called out for their lineout calling - when all the problems occurred. Then when he wasn't even in the 23, the lineout also totally f*cked it. He wasn't the problem.
Given the person - O'Mahony - he's being talked about in captaincy terms has also had (longer than a year and a half) periods where his form hasn't been great, it's a bit odd to be calling him out for it. Especially where they were two years ago. In terms of being nailed on for a starter position, he's more nailed on than the other contender in the forwards for the captaincy.
For the record, I have no problem with POM as captain for the next year. He deserves it if it gets it and the eminence he has amongst the squad and the leadership he provides (much like the AWJ reference above) outstrips anything anyone looking to take his spot gives us. I'm not saying it's my choice,I still think it'll be Ryan or Ringrose, but if it's not and it's O'Mahony I'm totally behind that decision. He's very worthy.
Ruadhri O'Connor asked this to Farrell on Ryan's benching for the Scotland game and was told it was a "form selection". After all you don't select an injured player for the bench.
But yes, the point is that I think waiting another season or two and seeing how the second row battle unfolds along with how Ringrose or others develop as leaders will leave us in a better position the pick the right captain.
POM makes sense as a short term option rather than backing someone who hasn't fully nailed down their place or is light on captaincy experience.
Yeah, see above. Not dropped.
I can practically see the back of my own head.
I think it's entirely obvious that he meant dropped to the bench.
Although I suppose we could spend several pages arguing disingenuously about semantics and exact terminology, Henderson started against Scotland because he was playing better.
For one match, which wasn't the last (business end) match we played. It was a disingenous assertion (at best) as well as being an inaccurate usage of the word dropped.
But I'll (probably) leave it there.
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