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Heat Pump Running Costs

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    I already do that. The water gets a boost at 7am back up to 50⁰.

    An Eddi could bring me to 65⁰ on a sunny day which would eliminate the need for the boost (post Legionella Cycle to 65 we get 2 showers and it drops to 50-55 depending on length).

    We have random daytime showers and baths for the small people in the house as necessary along with washing up etc that often means another boost on day rate. I could avoid the day boost and likely the 7am boost during summer with an Eddi is the thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭gandalfio


    Is 60 degress for 20 minutes once a week sufficient for anti-legionella?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Mine goes to 65 every 15 days for 30 mins (goes to 67 before turning off so never drops below 65 that quick anyway given its done at 2am).

    I've no idea what the guidance is on it.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7


    Bumping this thread, what types of kWh usage are people seeing from Heat pumps this winter.

    Im averaging out around 10 this month 2.5 of that is hot water.

    The remaining 7/8 is on night rate at 14c so happy enough.

    When we get a cold snap that daily usage will go up a little. House constant 20-21 degrees.

    *EcoDan Mitsubishi HP. 2800sqft A2 house, family of 5 home at home all day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭dominatinMC


    That seems like very reasonable usage. I have same HP, same size house (roughly) and same temperatures, and I'm using 14kWh/day on average. Tbh I was happy enough with that before seeing your post 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    3.06kWh/day heating

    2.37kWh/day hot water

    so about 5.5kWh/ day for both, 16 days so far this month.


    Ecodan hp , 2450 sqft A1 house. 21.5c house 48c hot water

    ☀️ 7.8kWp ⚡3.6kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7


    I think you're still pretty good there, I could easily be up to that if I ran the HP a little longer. And will hit that at colder temps too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    Yeah, I went and took the course and did the airtightness myself. It was a real pain in the ass, but so worth it in the end as most builders dont give a hoot once it comes in under regs, and the current regs are a bit of a joke.

    Although Im not on night rate, so I only run the hp between 10am and 6pm.

    ☀️ 7.8kWp ⚡3.6kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7


    100% you’ll only do it once. Mines A2 but I often wonder is it.

    what do you reckon your cost is for those 5.5kwh? I reckon I’m about the €2 a day. Have .14c night rate



  • Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭ColemanY2K


    may i ask what your ACH score was? i did the same wrt airtightness and was aiming for passive (0.6) but unfortunately ended with a reading of 1.8 ACH. i know the general area where most of the leaks are so will go and tackle them before I get the guy back to do a final air tightness test.

    by the way, under 6kWh / day is mightily impressive.

    🌞 7.79kWp PV System. Comprised of 4.92kWp Tilting Ground Mount + 2.87kWp @ 27°, azimuth 180°, West Waterford 🌞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader



    Im on the flogas 29 cent 24h community plan, so 1.6 a day for Nov, so your doing really well at 2euros/day on that night rate.

    Are you still building? If so still room to improve that score, but 1.8 is a good test. Our house got 1.1, we built a dormer so was pleased with that result, as dormers can be challenging for airtightness.

    ☀️ 7.8kWp ⚡3.6kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Folks if you are getting a shelly does it get wired into everything on your consumer unit or how does it work, id be interested in some monitoring like this and ill get my sparks to do it, but what do i need?



  • Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭ColemanY2K


    1.1 is a very good result. Jesus I'd be over the moon if the HP ends using 5.5kW per day.

    My own house is nearly finished, tbh if it wasn't for the plumber arsing around we'd be in by now.

    It's a 2100sqft bungalow and most of the leaks are in the membrane fixed to the joists so it's a case of going up into the attic and sealing the leaks. I bought myself a smoke pencil and have a thermal camera to help identify the leaks so I'll spend a few evenings over the next few weeks sealing the holes. After the test I'll lay the mineral wool insulation and that will be that.

    🌞 7.79kWp PV System. Comprised of 4.92kWp Tilting Ground Mount + 2.87kWp @ 27°, azimuth 180°, West Waterford 🌞



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭munsterfan2


    Running at just under 10kw per day, 2500 sq ft




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7


    ya a whisker under 10kwh average so far in Nov. 2022 was about 9kwh for same period. 2021 was 8kwh.

    looked back to dec last year and it’s about 18kwh. Outside temp was close to zero for much of that spell.

    again all down to weather





  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭johndoe11


    God I'd love to getting those numbers, you must all live near the coast! I'm in the Midlands and the last few days have used around 25 kwh a day, been very close to 0 at night and not much above 6/7 during the day. It a IVT AirX installed since 2017. The house 2700sq ft and is A1, it was A2 before solar panels. I run it slightly higher temperature at night so most units are night rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    Here is my moving 7 day average of my Joule/Samsung A2W heat pump. I live in a 220ms A1 (A2 without solar) house. Currently average about 17 kWh day but has gone up to 20. As you can see last December when we had that really cold snap for two weeks my HP was working over time and went up to over 40 kWH/day....but some of those days it didn't get about freezing even during the day and it went down to -5 to nearly -10 if I am not mistaken.

    4 adults in the house and someone is working from home all the time, my young adults 18-20 love to have 20-30 minute showers (at least once a day..) 🙄 so that drives a good bit of my energy use.


    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    @Cyrus Home Assistant (HA) on a Raspberry Pi4b, I use a couple of ShellyEMs in my consumer board to log the key circuits in my house (HP, Solar PV, Zappi, Utility room and ESB Incomer)

    The data is stored using InfluxDB and the graphs are using Grafana, all sounds a bit complicated but I'm no computer programmer but you need be be somewhat tech savvy that's all.

    In HA you can also has other dash boards that are more simple and has a mobile app that is very useful that you can check easily on the fly


    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Thank you, I use HA already so I’m sure I can figure it out.

    how many Shelly’s do you need and how many circuits are you monitoring? Do you just do overall and HP?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    I log 6 circuits...I initially got one just to log my main incomer and my PV to see what I was exporting/importing and what my PV was generating (the Solis app was crap and was only every 5 mins) I then realised I need to be logging my HP to really manage it so I ordered another Shelly to do that and the utility room..but! as it happens Shelly sent me an extra one my mistake so I ended up with three ShellyEM so I can log 6 circuits.

    Main ESB Incomer, Solar PV, Heat Pump, Zappi, Utility Room and the kitchen Island. The middle graph in my previous post is all 6 circuits and is the power usage over the last 24 hours.

    If you have an all electric house like me it essential that you have a live monitor that you can check instantly if something is on or not so you can pin down whats using your energy.


    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭jasgrif11


    @ECO_Mental thanks for sharing. I use a lot of Shellys. I really like them. Right now I have simple dat capture in HA. I must look into Grafana. Have you come across any howto guides?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    the auld youtube is your friend here, cant remember who i looked at setting up InfluxDB and Grafanna but this dude always puts out good tutorials about HA. Here he is setting up InfluxDB and Grafanna

    NEXT LEVEL STATISTICS - Home Assistant InfluxDB and Grafana - YouTube

    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    With the circulation pump running on mine, I'm measuring 45w idle, Circ pump is running due to low temperatures outside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Dutch Roll


    @jasgrif11 can I ask how are you powering your Shellys?

    I have no room in my consumer unit. Can they be wired to a 3pin plug and plugged into a spare socket?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭jasgrif11


    Yes they can be wired to a 3 pin plug. I combined mine with an existing RCB in my consumer unit. I have one for main electrical and another on my Heatpump. Separately I have them connected directly to my dishwasher, dryer and washing machine (where the shelly is in the socket)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭jasgrif11


    No, not at all. What I did was purchase a double socket and deeper surface mount box. This gave me loads of room to add in the Shelly. The result is this:




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭dominatinMC


    With the current cold snap, how are peoples HPs coping now? My usage has shot up, with yesterdays usage being 22kWh. Before the cold spell, I was in around 12-14 kWh per day for the month of Nov. Will put up data shortly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7


    Similar, I was ticking away at 8-10kwh inc hot water. At about 20kwh for last 4/5 days. It does help that’s all at 14c per kWh hour on night rate.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    First days proper stats once i got all my recording working correctly

    28kwh electric, 78kwh heat out. Ecoforest, Running at a 50C temperature during the day, and going to 60 overnight, taking advantage of the cheaper night rate. Taking a hit on the COP though. All from night rate or batteries. I am running a large buffer acting as a battery too.

    1980's house, was a c2 after solar but would have hit a b3 if my oil boiler wasnt 30+ yrs old at the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    You upgrade or add any rads or left the existing ones there running at 50C?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Left them be, Was running at that for the last year from the buffer tank anyway( link). A lot of them already are double rads at this stage anyway.

    Living room (4m*5m, Stove) is struggling a bit, 2 external walls and 2 big windows. 1400mm rad. Radiator is also behind sofa. Have ordered some radiator fans as an experiment, to assist the air flow. Can get to 20c fine, but to get above 20 is harder. Flow temps vary from 50-45 as HP doesn't kick in again until its 5c under the buffer setpoint. Never was an issue as there's always been a fire on before this.

    Have a small fire on these nights, but its not like how it used to be. (like firing a steam engine on these cold days!)

    Interesting how I ball parked 100kwh a day (of heat) last year. which possibly would be on point for the cold days.

    I suppose i'm only running at a deltaT (difference between room temp and rad temp) of 30c too, Looking at similarish radiators, its about 1kw at that delta.

    Looking at steelrad to convert all the delta50 to delta30 you multiply by 0.515. So If I was able to go for a 2m radiator in there, (I have the space Possibly just extend the pipes out) It would boost the output by 800ish watts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Hi graememk for clarity I don't have a2a, anecdotally I understand the efficiency is the same or better than a2w, albeit a2w and UfH is a different mindset of slow hear up of a slab etc - a2a is going to be more fast up/fast down.

    My old Ground source ran around 90kw yesterday- I'm starting to think a2a can't be any worse but gives me cool air in summer

    😎



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    I meant your efficiency for your ground source. Do you know the kWh out?

    A2W or ground source will easily beat air source if installed correctly. With underfloor you should be able to hit 4-500% efficiency due to low flow temperatures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    The cold weather over the last few days has shot me right up..hovering around 28 kWh/day now..this is including DHW as well


    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    I estimate its about 2.8-3 last time I tried to assess it (do not have a KW out reading - and are they accurate anyway?). It was poorly designed I suspect. there are manifolds up and downstairs, with circ pumps each around 150-200watts/hour (connected to room thermostats not Heat pump, so calling all day). that is nearly 8kw per day before the pump even fires - and then its old, so not inverter, so around 4.5KW/hour when it fires. A new system would likely have no circ pumps outside the Heat pump, and heat pump would run constantly at a lower KW instead of cycling on and off (as i understand it)

    😎



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  • Administrators Posts: 400 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭System


    This discussion was created from comments split from: Air to Air with hot water systems.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Pulled this out as i was dragging it off topic of a2a systems.

    If 2.5 your heat requirement (loss) would have been 225kWh, at 3 its 270kWh. How big is the house?

    Also pumps using 200w, Thats huge. to me anyway. I only have 1 circulation pump and it only uses 30 when its flat out.

    Have a look at this video, and does anything match up with your install?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    As a comparison, if people want to see the surprisingly high amount of gas kWh they use you can do it easily. Check the meter on Day1. Do the same on Day2. Multiple the units used by 11.545 which converts gas in meters cubed to kWh (that conversion rate shows on your gas bill).

    The other day we used 70kWh of gas units (in a small house). ~65% of that turned into heat (20 year old gas boiler). Or €9 of gas used for a single day – which is well expensive! Ok, it was a heavier day as I ran it all day without the heating controls on to see the usage. With a heatpump we might only have needed 13kWh (it’s a small house) to generate the 45kWh of heat we needed (assuming COP of 3.5). 



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Yeah the gas efficiency of an old boiler surprised me, And even just doing a straight swap for a condensing one too might not even get you to 90+% if your return temperature is too high and its not going into condensing mode.

    But you could even go farther, if you arent keeping a constant temperature you can see the gas needed to get up to temperature in the first hour, and then your maintenance temperature in the next hour.

    Newer boilers can modulate down for the low and slow burn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Thanks for that video, I have seen a lot of heat geek one but not that one, and mine is not dissimilar at all. Too many pumps (yes newer pumps- the ones you have- will be more like 3-50w instead of 150-250!)

    One option for me could well be to take bits out!

    my understanding is though the newer heat pump will adjust output too - so run steady at 1.5kw for example instead of on and off at 4-4.5kw. I imagine that must add double digit improvement in KW usage

    😎



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    yeah newer pumps will adjust the pump and the compressor to maintain to say a 5c delta between flow and return.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    Hi Lads, any recommendations for apps for Ecodan.

    Was hoping to get energy usage per day and live consumption but getting very little from Melcloud apart from monthly consumption and some temps.

    Plugged into home assistant too and getting a couple of values but daily energy consumed is 0



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Have a look at this thread....


    I've consumption and production by DHW and CH for yesterday, current live consumption and production (the live consumption is wrong based on my shelly EM though).

    Also have a flag for defrost mode, flow temps, pump status (i.e. if it's running).

    I've used the consumption and production to see my COP although as above asterisk on the live but yesterday aligns well with shelly monitor.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭staples7


    I’ve MELCloud and find it great. Can see daily consumption. Are you sure you are using it right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    I dont think I've an energy monitor installed in my Ecodan so I can't see daily, it seems to be only an accumulation monthly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    Ecodan updates every day, so even though its listed monthly you can see you daily usage as the month progresses.

    ☀️ 7.8kWp ⚡3.6kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



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