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Child Item

Should the sale of second-hand electrical items be banned?

Andy From Sligo

More than likely an unpopular post but it will be good to get other people's views on it.

Should there be a ban on used second-hand electrical items like cookers, washing machines, tumble driers , fridges etc in charity shops, buy and sell publications and online selling sites such as Facebook Market place and done-deal etc (even adverts.ie 😲 ) ?

Bear with me a the moment:

If you buy brand new you get a 12 month warranty on an item (possibly even more) or can return a faulty (possibly dangerous item) back to the shop where you bought it from. You can also get recalls from the manufacturers for faulty or dangerous items. And you can be sure that when you have bought brand new from a shop that the item you get will have come directly from the factory as is , no faulty (possibly dangerous) secondhand parts fitted to it , brand new never been used.

If you buy used second-hand goods they could look absolutely fine on the outside , you might even think you are getting such a bargain and the appliance hardly looks used ... how do you know for certain that it is not dangerous or turn out to be dangerous (ie catch fire or electrocute you or someone else in the household)? can you be sure that the appliance has not previously had a repair job done on it and was not carried out by an electrician or a qualified person? - how can you be sure that it has had its internal parts replaced with safe components (some parts that are not manufactured spare parts can be lethal!, not even passed for safety) - how can you be sure the insulation inside has not been compromised some how and the item is no longer properly earthed etc or someone has replaced the cable and used the wrong size or left the earth off or done the screws up in the 13amp 3 pin plug properly or used the right fuse?

Worryingly, frequently, landlords of rented houses tend to buy used/secondhand items like electric cookers and washing machines and the likes opting for these for new or existing tenants rather than buying brand new appliances. What if they fit to the house or apartment a dangerous item that is either going to catch alight or shock one of their tenants, who's will pay up for that, will the goods even be insured or covered by their insurance if the items are not brand new?

Now onto charity shops, its selective - I have been in some charity shops that will not accept any electrical items for this very issue (of not being sure/being able to check) that the electrical items are safe so they will not accept them/sell them , and then some charity shops that will (OK maybe not cookers and washing machines etc) but things like small appliances like mixers, hairdryers, table lamps etc (these can electrocute as well as catch fire as well) - then there are more outlets such as Car boot sales and market stalls that sell electrical items. They are hardly going to thoroughly give these a good check through for safety before putting them out.... and if you do end up with a faulty electrical appliance you are hardly going to be able to take it back to them and get a refund or any comeback like that , that you could in a shop.

we seem to be at a place now where you cannot wire up certain things in your home , or if you call in an electrician by law they must be registered and do a sign of sheet of competence - yet you can go to a car boot sale, charity shop, buy something online electrical and no nothing of its past and how safe it is against electrocution or fire very easily.

worth thinking about that maybe used/second-hand items should not be able to be sold? and that the only place you can buy an electrical item would be a shop or directly from a manufacturer?

I dont want to be a killjoy I have and still do, buy used electrical items myself and love looking around a good ol' car boot sale or see whats on the ol' facebook marketplace or done deal or adverts (to save money mainly) - have too a few apart when have got them and found some dodgy repairs sometimes done by previous owners and I open up 13a plug and screws loose/not done up tight or wrong fuse fitted (but thats just me- I bet not everybody does) I should imagine a lot of people just get it home , plug it in and thats it and doesnt give it another thought.

So, what do you reckon - ban the sale of used electrical items ... or not?

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Comments

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247302#Comment_121247302

yeah because DIY public people these days do bodge up jobs on them , taping up bits of wire with insulation tape and not wiring stuff right

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247053#Comment_121247053

takes me back kind of years ago - Mitsubishi made really good quality VHS video recorders and televisions in Ireland . a really good brand - then I think something happened and they were either sold or taken over but they started to be made in a Turkey (Turkish Delight the Electrical shops used to call them then) ... the name stayed (or they may have been Black Diamond , in the design of Mitsubishi , but the quality seem to go down with them - wasnt as well made. To un-known customers when they went to buy from the shop they had been buying Mitsubishi for years and non the wiser when they bought the next incarnation

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247230#Comment_121247230

How did you escape electrocution? Not only did you salvage parts from used electrical appliances, but you fitted them yourself.

Now you think buying something secondhand is a surefire way to find yourself laid out in a coffin.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246964#Comment_121246964

so different to the old days - in the 90's there was a lovely fella run a (independent) at our local TV and electrical shop (RIP bless him) I used to go in there and say "you havent by any chance got a switch/motor /pump for my washing machine" - go up the back and work away he used to say , help yourself take what you want , and I would climb and clamber all over the ovens and washing machines and fridges all in the rain (so they would be all slippy) no mention about "oh my insurance does not cover you going through the stuff" or anything like that. Sometimes yep I would cut my finger on a sharp bit of metal on the edge of a washing machine cabinet, nothing a plaster wouldnt fix - blimey it was a different time altogether back then (better) and like the manufacturers near enough kept all the parts the same or similar - if i wanted a indesit or Hotpoint washing machine motor or a pump all the same across the range and very easy to find parts for

nachouser

I once saved a washing machine by buying a new belt for it and then watching a youtube video about how to use a cable-tie to fit the seemingly too damn small belt to the drum. I basically invented fire in that moment.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246964#Comment_121246964

Wonder why that is? I presume just to stop people behaving like a murder of crows around recycling bins.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241396#Comment_121241396

In the real world one of the quickest ways to make a profit is to buy a company with a name for reliability, close the factories and replace what they make with cheap shoddy Chinese crap for as long as you can get away with it. Never assume a business is in the business of business. When they change hands too often it's asset stripping with a bit of transfer pricing. Compare the UK water companies payouts to shareholders to the amount they underinvested in their core business.

At best we live in a world where assets are being transformed into income streams. Brother sell printers. HP sell ink though they'd much rather you sign up for a subscription.

Mech1

My 1st thought on reducing ewaste is to remove the rule saying that someone can't pick something out of the ewaste skips outside of power city etc. Loads of stuff in there that is ripe for reuse as is or easy repair by people like myself with a little bit of knowledge.

Same as in the council recycling depots fridges dishwashers etc are full of unbroken drawers, shelves, clips, wheels etc that could save people loads of money on buying spares or scrapping there own. But no scavenging allowed is the rule.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246868#Comment_121246868

I’m acutely aware of the thermal effects of non modular components. it was also done to slim down the designs and make them more compact.

However, it’s absolutely feasible to run them with good performance and thermal levels while maintaining an easy to repair machine.

Apple (and not just them but they’re the biggest ones) have spent millions on lobbying law makers to fight against right to repair.

I can sit and have a reasoned discussion with you about this if you like? I’m more than happy. I may have said there’s no excuses, I didn’t say there was purely no reason.

There is no excuse to render a €7,000 laptop ewaste because the ducking battery failed. A competent repair person could easily fix, but Apple won’t let them.

Granted they are better now about it I think in the states Apple will sell you parts, it’s still a major problem.

I just don’t think we should be sending expensive electronics to landfill for a few % more power and a few degrees cooler.

edit: for example I have a razer blade 15, modular battery, SSD & ram. It’s about as thick as a MacBook Pro and way better performance compared to the base model.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246780#Comment_121246780

Accidentally posted before I finished writing. But I’m glad you still got my point.

Of course you need to be an expert before making absolute statements like “there’s no excuse. None. 0”. Because it’s a nonsense statement, and anyone who remotely know what they were talking about would never make it. The fact that you state that the RAM is “soldered to the logic board” is solid evidence of the laughable lack of knowledge you actually have.

The RAM in the modern Apple chips is not soldered to the logic board. It’s integrated into the CPU itself. If you don’t know the difference between that and being “soldered onto the logic board”, then you should probably go back to the basics, regardless of your teenage experience with “electronics” (whatever that’s supposed to mean exactly).

It’s done that way for the massive power and thermal savings the approach affords, which results in higher performance consuming lower power in a significantly smaller size. These are the very clear and obvious reasons for doing it. There is absolutely no way to have the RAM as a modular element in a SoC (System on a Chip) architecture. It would be like having your hippocampus as a separate organ to your brain.

For better or worse, once Apple decided to go down the route of SoC design (for the significant performance to power ratio it enjoys), then that decision was made for them. Yes, they could utilise an architecture that uses modular components - as they did in the past, and as other manufacturers do still. But they wouldn’t be SoC, and their computers would be bigger, more power hungry and more reliant on fans or active cooling than they are now.

The SoC design is not about saving money or making manufacturing easier (it’s more costly and more difficult to make). It’s simply a very specific and deliberate approach to performance.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246771#Comment_121246771

You don’t need to be an expert to be informed. I’ve a lot of experience with electronics since I was a teenager.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246032#Comment_121246032

You’re posting this like you’re an expert in

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246115#Comment_121246115

... not more reliable with all the fun that was had with brittle lead free solder joints for several years after it was introduced.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246189#Comment_121246189

you seem quite angry (or anger management issues) or stressed 😁

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246115#Comment_121246115

give me strength.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245978#Comment_121245978

i used to fix kettles, toasters, vacuum cleaners 2 bar fires, radios and VHS video recorders (to a certain extent) back in the 90's used to get the parts handy enough from quinnspares in Dublin - parts were plentiful, most stuff were 'unscrewable' - i do remember a time when manufacturers started to use odd screws though to deter people removing the screws to repair them , they werent normal posidrive ones or torx screws they had their own weird screws.

in the end I was getting less and less repairs, prices were starting to come down on small electrical appliances and it was getting cheaper to buy brand new than repair . - but for a certain time window a lot of people were going for the repair option.

back in them days there was no such thing as the WEEE so all the discarded electrical items really were going into landfill!

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246032#Comment_121246032

cheaper for them to make - plus it could also be a better way of doing it/ more reliable. the amount of times I have had to re-seat RAM in windows PC's and laptop is a lot ... because they are in sockets- in that resepect if the RAM is actually soldered onto the main board its one less thing to fail because it has not got a socket to fit into with poor contact. Had that been cheap chinese design sure you could get dry joints or not enough solder used or poor quality solder used ... but not on a quality apple product though the soldering would be top notch

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245993#Comment_121245993

There’s no excuse for soldering parts to the logic board on a laptop that costs €5,000 at its highest spec.

none.

sorry, my mistake, it’s actually €7,699 for the highest spec MacBook Pro 16”.

I can’t upgrade the ram after buying it though because it’s soldered to the logic board. I also can’t change the SSD. Or the battery.

In fact all I can do is turn it on and do the things Apple has decided I’m allowed do. If it breaks I have to pay them €€€’s to fix it.

The irony? They don’t even fix it. They recycle it and send me a new one. Why? It’s too complicated even for them to fix.

There’s no excuse. None. 0.

Andy From Sligo

its got to be a cheaper way of making stuff , not making it easier for people repair. - you imagine years ago when things used to have screws in them and screwed together. Great for the repairer to take apart. You imagine the manufacturer now no screws needed and they can just 'clip' the case together , or glue it together or mould the outer casing . you might say ah come on screws are a minimal cost ... but you add all them screws up for hundreds of thousands of the item they produce .... soon adds up and adds to the cost of manufacturing the item

Kimbot

Yeah i do agree there are tonnes of small electronics that are hard to do but for the like of large scale appliances it really should be done. Most parts can be gotten off the shelf and I would have alot of experience with that. I work in a prison where tonnes of the electronics are repaired rather than dumped and it saves us a massive amount of money in the long run. Mostly all of what is done here is Kettles/TV's/Toasters/Fridges/Washing Machines/Tumble Dryers and most of the repairs are not too extensive bar cleaning the insides of the machines and maybe replace a part or two.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245443#Comment_121245443

A lot of the time it’s not as easy to repair things because manufacturers make it hard.

You can have all the know how in the world but without access to proper parts and schematics you’re pissing into the wind. Repairing a product with counterfeit parts because you can’t get access to OEM means it won’t last as well or indeed be as safe, this is all down to the manufacturer.

Then there’s the likes of Apple or Samsung who solder components to the fcuking logic board so it’s impossible without serious skills and equipment to repair these.

If you are interested in this subject you should check out Louis Rossman on YouTube he does logic board level repairs on MacBooks etc and talks a lot about right to repair and the hardships repair shops run into because of manufacturer policies.

Leg End Reject

There's enough built-in obsolescence with electrical goods as it is, if they can be bought secondhand that will reduce waste when people opt for newer and shinier.

The EU is pushing for repair to become the norm rather than replace too.

Kimbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244905#Comment_121244905

Im sure they are plenty of people on the dole/retired etc that would be well qualified to do this job and top up their pay/entitlements as part of same, get rid of alot of scrap waste while also providing jobs and security/appliances to those that need them.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245003#Comment_121245003

that’s actually not true re quality checking

theres laws surrounding the quality of electrical goods and they must pass a certain level of safety.

Naturally all things can fail so it doesn’t indicate a lack of quality control. Then of course there’s the smaller electronics market with less regulated products and downright dangerous things

but let me assure you that a cheap Chinese mp3 player setting itself on fire doesn’t indicate that a second hand washing machine is going to burn your house down.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244563#Comment_121244563

why cant fridges be built like that any more? - well for a start it has dangerous refrigerant gas/chemical in it damaging to the environment (maybe you are not worried about that) and because items were not as mass produced years ago using the cheapest of materials and quite possibly every fridge that left the factory in them days were quality tested , whereas these days you will be lucky to get 1 out of every 100 fridge produced to go through stringent quality testing at the factory these days ... then of course people would not want to pay / would not be prepared to pay in todays money what that fridge cost in 1965 , (if i have my calculations/conversions right £1iep in 1965 = €25 in 2023 - I dont know if irish punts were out in 1965, or would that have been pre-decimalisation? ) - fridges are cheaper these days, mass produced, not all quality tested and use cheaper parts (thinner metal and plastic and parts that wear out quicker than a 1965 built fridge)

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244946#Comment_121244946

I’d argue that’s 99% of all threads on AH!

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244878#Comment_121244878

98.3% of your posts are stuff you make up in your head, and then ask what we think about it.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244226#Comment_121244226

excellent Idea- I would be in support of that, as long as they were repaired properly and they were not ancient models, and you could still get parts for the appliance there would be no reason not to recycle then and put them into council houses and give to people in dire need who cannot afford to buy a new appliance

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244878#Comment_121244878

What??? In 2023 you didn’t expect the first post to be asking for your peer reviewed study??

andy.. cmon

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244214#Comment_121244214

Well I only posted it to get other people's ideas on it- I didnt realise it was going to get official with people wanting figures and statistics and all that