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Dodgy Business Practice

Fylime

Hey guys,

Wanted to get people's opinions on the below:

My husband and I offered on a house and after a few weeks we got a call from the estate agent confirming it was between us and one other party. We increased our offer and received a text message asking us if we would go onto daft.ie to partake in a Private Treaty Bidding with the other party. Obviously I asked if the other party was countering?? I got back that, she, our estate agent was flying out on holidays and that the countering would just go back and fourth on email for days and the online bidding was transparent and fair plus much quicker. She would hand things over to a colleague. Online bids is not something we or the other couple wanted to do but we both agreed to it in the end. A few hours later we received a formal email from the estate agent with a link to open the private treaty bidding link and to submit our offer, this was on a Friday, and email stated bids will close at 5pm Monday.

Both parties submitted 1st bids on Fri/Sat, obviously not stupid enough to start actively bidding over the weekend bringing the price up, knowing that there was a 5pm close on the Monday.

Monday came and right enough at 16:51 we put in a higher bid and 4 mins later at 16:56 the other party did, we submitted our max bid ie what we wanted to pay for the house, at 16:59. No counter from the other party. We won and prepared to log off, anticipating a call from the estate agent.

To our shock, a bid came in at 17:03 from the other party.... I text the 'stand in' estate agent straight away asking her to stop it and panicked putting in another bid at 17:03. I thought there was a glitch or something with the system turning off, so better to be safe than sorry. Of course I'd argue that the bid prior to 5pm is what we pay. However, 9 mins go by and obviously we again thought we won but no... The estate agent let another bid go through from the other party at 17:12 ??? I rang the estate agent straight away and obviously lost it with her. She said " it wasn't a literal 5pm"??? "That all auction platforms allow a few mins" I said I'm out and hung up. She tried calling back twice. I did not pick up. I walked away because it was completely unethical what she was doing. We also felt that no matter what bid we put through, even if it went on for another hour, that she was ultimately going to decide who wins and at what price. Fair? Transparent? Ethical? Law breaking?

NOTE: this wasn't an auction.

The estate agent, by breaking the rules and ignoring the private treaty 5pm close essentially turned it into an online auction, allowing 'bidding extension windows' after the other partys last bid at 16:56 throughout and up until 5.30pm., with absolutely no rules whatsoever (standard practice in Ireland across auction platforms is 60 seconds - but this wasn't an auction)

Neither party received any communication prior to the deadline that she was extending the private treaty nor did she communicate any of the auction rules she was adhering to.

Who in there right mind would agree to an estate agent having control over turning off a private treaty bidding whenever it suits them. Surely that gives way for her to essentially choose the winning bid, the price and purchaser ie the party she wants to win??

Am I missing something?

Appreciate anyones expertise on the matter, please and thank you.

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Fylime

I do not think any offer, whether it's higher than our max bid, should be accepted after 5pm.

I also didn't state that we didn't have the highest offer after 5pm.

Both parties were to have their best and final offer in by 5pm close, because the estate agent was flying out on holiday and didn't want it dragging out over the following week through email.

ForestFire

I don't know the legalities if the whole situation, but I do find it interesting that the EA rang you twice, when you already told them you were out, and the bidding was online anyway.....

Did the EA suddenly find themselves without any bidder, or maybe not even close to what this great plan was supposed to achieve for their client??

Is the house gone sale agreed of daft?

Why not get a distant friend to but in an impromptu inquiry on the house early in the week?

Fylime

It was best and final by 5pm close, because the estate agent was flying out and didn't want it dragging out over email for another week.

I also didn't state that we didn't have the highest offer in after 5pm. I don't think any offer price after 5pm should be paid.

TheHopeful

Sounds very unfair and very unprofessional op. I'd be curious to hear how this plays out so please keep us updated.

Fylime

I'm really not sure if I can be bothered persuing it further. Our solicitor asked our permission to send a letter to the estate agent as he agrees with us. We said fine.

It's a house at the end of the day, is it worth my energy, health and stress levels. I'll have a think about it.

Either way, I still don't think we or the other party should pay any price submitted after 5pm.

Sarn

Best and final would offer normally be a blind bid, to avoid and end situations such as this. The idea is to cut out the back and forth.

Fylime

When I asked the stand in estate agent why she extended the 5pm best and final, she was the one who mentioned Auctions. She said all auctions do, so she did. I said but it wasn't an auction. She got tongue tied.

Fylime

We actually thought it was going to be a blind bid but it seems anyone looking at daft.ie could see everything.

Former Former Former

It wasn't an auction, and it wasn't a blind bid (aka tender), it was a private treaty. As such, bidding continues until the seller says so and the seller can pick whichever bid/bidder he wants. No cut-off time, no obligation to sell to the highest bidder.

Your solicitor might agree it was a mess but I'll be very surprised if he agrees it was illegal and there's absolutely no way he'll advise you to take it any further.

Honestly, your best bet now is to ring the estate agent, say that things got a bit heated and if the winning bidder drops out, to give you a call.

Fylime

It wasn't what we agreed to or signed up for. It's hard for you to understand that because you haven't seen all the communications from them to us and our solicitor. Thanks for your input though, I appreciate it.

RichardAnd

Ethics and estate agents go together like oil and water. The behaviour that you have encountered is reprehensible, but anyone who's tried to buy a house in the last few years has probably encountered this. The 5pm "closing time" was not binding because it was not an auction. If the EA got another offer two weeks after going sale agreed, they likely would have put it to the owner.

Also, I'll just point out that these online bidding platforms do not turn a sale into an auction. In a real auction, a bid is binding. If one is using something like Auctionera, anyone can "bid" on a property and drive up the price with little to no oversight. The sad reality is that in the current market, this kind of thing is common. If you really want a house, you're going to have to deal with this at some point. I actually know of people who did go though this, bought the house and then told the EA that he was a c**t when they took the keys off him. I doubt that the agent lost sleep, mind you...

That's Ireland 2023.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212444#Comment_121212444

The problem is that all arrangements for this type of bidding are binding in honor only and should be understood as such. Unless there is a formal written contract, neither the agent nor the vendor (nor indeed the bidders) can be legally bound by anything. Legally, the agent has little choice but to hear a late bid and convey it to the seller.

This is not to say that the agent didn’t convey something different. We haven’t seen the correspondence as you say but I find it quite easy to believe that you were misled. But it’s not really anything worse than bad customer service. Try not to fall out with the agent over it, for the simple mercenary reason that they have the houses, and you need one.

Fylime

Yes, even Auctionera have rules however. Yes, the price can be driven up but they have timing rules so to prevent or minimize any fraudulent or malicious behavior.

I wouldn't deal with this estate agent again. Everything out of her mouth was a lie. There are plenty of other estate agents selling houses in the area. She has a very bad name for a reason.

bikeman1

The easiest way to understand is that the estate agent does not care, yes does not care whatsoever about the purchaser. They are solely acting for the seller and that's it. They have to get the highest price and will do whatever tactic (i.e. reopening a sales window) to achieve this for the seller.

There is no point in getting upset about this. That's how it works and you would be naive to think otherwise. In any property deal, you have to be prepared to walk away and take a cold view on things, even if you dream to live there forever. That's very hard to do, but it has to be done. I have heard of far worse stories than this. Let them know where you stand and move on.

Fylime

Yes, I have already moved on. Just not understanding her calling me after I dropped out plus the lengthly text messages telling me she's awake all night thinking about me.... Please. Guilt!!

Big Bag of Chips

The seller can accept or not any offer. If the offers are increasing the seller is unlikely to call a stop to it. The EA is an agent for the seller. Regardless of what she told you, she has no right to stop people bidding on a house at a particular time. The seller is paying her. They could rightly ask her why she is limiting the bids? THAT might be seen as her influencing who can buy the house.

Someone completely new could come in next Friday and make a higher offer on the house and the seller could accept that. It's just the way it is. You would have no right to say that bidding on the house ended the previous week and as such nobody else can bid.

Dishonest of the EA? Yes.

Illegal or anything you can do about it? No.

davo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211262#Comment_121211262

There is nothing unlawful about it. Put on your big boy/girl pants and move on.

Fylime

I repeat. No one knows the communications we or our solicitor received. The seller wasn't involved. He asked the estate agent to get us to put our max offer in by 5pm. He couldn't decide between both parties as we both had proof of funds.

As I have said countless times, we have moved on. We walked away from an unethical estate agent.

No one should get away with this type of behaviour. There are rules in place so this malicious behavior doesn't occur.

Fylime

There is also a lot of background re the seller and rectification paperwork still to be completed... A four month wait. We and the other party were the only two to agree to wait. He gave his word he would not accept any other offers after max bid by 5pm or from any other parties in the future.

Maybe he will be just as bad as the estate agent but both parties agreed to same.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213124#Comment_121213124

That actually reminds me of an anecdotal story of when my parents sold their hone in Dublin 3 in '97. There were three interested parties, and the EA and my parents opted to go for a "best offer" means of selling the house. Each of the parties made their offer, but the winner's offer was only something like 100 pounds above the next highest offer. My parents always suspected collusion, but there was no way to prove it.

The point is that EAs can and will act the maggot. I agree completely that it is repulsive, but regulating ethics is a difficult thing to do. In other industries, this kind of behaviour would earn someone a bad reputation, but in the property market, it is seemingly accepted.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213124#Comment_121213124

No one knows the communications we or our solicitor received.

Correct - we can only go on what you've told us, and you have yet to show us any evidence or even a suggestion of anything unlawful, malicious or fraudulent.

All we've seen so far is one buyer who missed out on a house and is disappointed with the outcome.

Also, it absolutely is not true to say "he couldn't decide between both parties as we both had proof of funds" - there are lots of reasons to pick one buyer over another. He doesn't even need a reason.

Fylime

That's s shocking.

I was reading online that if the estate agents has two or more parties interested, in a private treaty sale, they can place a timeline/close (which is essentially what they did, but stating max bid by 5pm close. We agreed.

Plus they can also have a mock auction, bid rules must apply, however.

We would have had no problem partaking in the above if the rules were communicated and fair.

I'm over it. Won't deal with them again nor agree to a bidding with a close.

Thanks

Fylime

The seller said that not me.

Fylime

You must be an estate agent.

I legally can't post anything, right now anyway, re communications between them and us or solicitor, sorry.

Tomw86

Having been in several bidding processes last year before deciding on a new build which we moved in to in July (as we were sick of bidding and EA's in that process) I would be intrigued to see how this pans out...please keep us updated.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213206#Comment_121213206

With respect to you, I think that you have far too much good faith in these people. I'm sure that there are EAs with integrity, but as a rule, I place them somewhere between politicians and used car salesmen.

Fylime

Well congratulations on the new build. We might do the same now. Sorry that you had similar experiences.

Lots of articles in the paper/online about similar situations. Also stating that people are afraid to report it. I just don't know who would agree to allowing an estate agent having control over turning off a private bidding whenever she wants... No rules whatsoever!!!

We haven't decided yet if we'll take it any further but the estate agent knows our feelings on it and is texting me ever since.

If nothing else it's a lesson learnt. Never trust a word out of an estate agents mouth, even if it's in writing and a solicitor is involved. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Thanks

Fylime

It's only now when we are telling people what happened are we hearing that this estate agent is dodgy and untrustworthy. Shame 🤷‍♀️

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213225#Comment_121213225

You must be an estate agent.

Lol. I'm not an estate agent, but I've been through a number of house sales and purchases and I'll tell you now, your experience is not a particularly bad one. You're angry and frustrated because you missed out, but you're just setting yourself up for more stress and heartache by getting so bent out of shape over this.

Fylime

I'm not angry that we missed out. I also never said that we missed out. I'm entitled to ask questions. I'm entitled to ask why max offer is not the price to be paid. Plus I have every right to walk away from a lying estate agent.

Maybe if people stopped letting these idiots away with this ****, something would be done about it. But no everyone is happy to let it happen.