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The emergence of "Zombie" by The Cranberries as an Irish sporting anthem

Snooker Loopy

We all heard Zombie by The Cranberries being belted out around the Stade De France last night. Zombie was written in the wake of the 1993 PIRA bomb in Warrington which killed 3 year old Jonathan Ball and 12 year old Tim Parry.

What is absolutely hilarious is the reaction among some quarters to this emergence of the song as an Irish sporting anthem. Many of the same people who just a few weeks ago were taking great pleasure in the Up The Ra chant are now expressing grave offence at anti-violence song. Dolores O'Riordan and rugby supporters have been demonised as "partitionist", "West Brit", and all but branded as supporters of Loyalist terror groups and the British Army.

The message from these quarters is clear. They call for glorification of those who committed the murderous act that was the Warrington bomb. And they vilify the people who sing a song that called out those murderers.

This is the Disneyfication of Irish history in action, in plain sight. A Trump like cult mentality.

How do these people defend their barefaced hypocrisy?

https://twitter.com/TadhgHickey/status/1705695945474646232?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

https://twitter.com/ancamansoluis/status/1705691421062107403

https://twitter.com/DublinHistorian/status/1705862081247916468

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Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163874#Comment_121163874

Do you propose that people fill out a form stating their reasons for singing Zombie, and that only if it passes the "let's not offend Shinners" test should they be allowed sing it? Something like that?

How would this work in practice?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163859#Comment_121163859

I'm scratching my head here. You've found someone else who seems to share an interpretation which is convenient to you both.

And from that we get what?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163874#Comment_121163874

The song is labelling people who think bombing children is a good idea as zombies. That applies generally, not just to nationalists. That you see it as being applicable to nationalists probably says more about your real worldview than anything else. You appear to be greatly embarrassed to be a Sinn Fein voter and want not to be reminded of the things that Sinn Fein supports and defends. Nobody in Sinn Fein disassociates themselves from the PIRA, in fact, Michelle O'Neill and MLMD constantly refuse to do so.

That you self-identify with the people the song is addressing should give you pause for thought.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163677#Comment_121163677

Personally I don't have a problem with anyone singing it for sporting reasons. I can see the perspective some nationalists seem to have that they feel the song is labelling them as 'zombies'. I don't think that was Delores' intention, I think she wrote it from a very honest and genuine place.

Again, my problem is if people are singing to it as a political message to sf voters, as you yourself have indicated brings you great satisfaction. I'm there to enjoy a match, I've no time for political violence. Most sf voters don't support violence, why should we have to be patronized and preached to when we try to enjoy a game like everyone else?

But again I guess all that depends on you pretending you can't see a songs can have different messages in different situations.

I don't know if I should be engaging with your nonsense but I guess these are the same to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPaBrRyq--w&list=PLMgZ9OSQDNX5QeRkYWzfBxyOcgtaONZAr&index=5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH3oOVKt0WI

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163799#Comment_121163799

This is a really good example of how the revisionist history pushed by Sinn Fein has infected political discourse in this country. That someone claims to be ignorant of the differences between the PIRA and the old IRA is a sad indictment of our educational system.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163784#Comment_121163784

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163722#Comment_121163722

Well, it seems @MegamanBoo that you are in a minority on that one, the other poster quoted agrees with my interpretation of Parry's remarks. There is absolutely no way that anyone singing Zombie could be stoking division. As has been repeatedly pointed out, the only people who would be offended by the song and on the other side of a divide would be those people who think that bombing children is a good idea. You seem to be putting yourself on that side of the divide, or at the very least have a deep empathy and sympathy for people on that side who think bombing children is a good idea.

I will draw my own conclusions.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163448#Comment_121163448

There was a poster here from the bogside years ago and I took the opportunity to ask were the IRA ever actually seen as heroes, he said they were at the very start where essentially ordinary residents took up arms to defend their communities from what was an attack by the occupying forces, but very soon after they became a pain to everyone. JuSt like in the old westerns where the local home guard get guns to protect people and the power goes to their head. So yes the IRA heroes protecting their communities for about 3 weeks, from then on they were murdering scum bag women abusers

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163659#Comment_121163659

Can you explain the difference?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163610#Comment_121163610

I agree there's a distinction, absolutely.

I think it's quite clear he didn't want either song being used to stoke division either.

Nor do I and I think most reasonable would agree with that.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163588#Comment_121163588

You've clearly been sent out to bat by SF here.

You've gone from wanting the song banned purely for goading the opposition to now wanting it banned cos it might sway SF voters.

You do realise all your previous posts remain up here don't you?

Reluctant SF voter my arse, and I heard the Parry interview this morning, he clearly stated that it was 'up the 'ra' that was going to stoke the fires of the past.

Go away.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163575#Comment_121163575

The Provos bombed Warrington. Sinn Fein were the political wing of the Provos. I don't care what offence Sinn Fein voters take at historical facts. Why should anybody care?

Sport can be a great unifying force. Ireland's victory over South Africa a great example. The only people trying to divide anybody after it were the likes of that grifter Tadhg Hickey and the other buffoons feigning offence at Zombie.

I hope Zombie continues to be played and sung loudly after more Irish victories at this Rugby World Cup. Do you?

rdwight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163381#Comment_121163381

You say you're a historian and you can't see any difference between the old IRA and the PIRA. You're trolling, right?

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163592#Comment_121163592

They were on the same side, exchanged information, actually performed operations together. Trying to claim that loyalists and the British armed forces weren't interlinked is the revisionism. I actually think I gave you a list of collusion previously, did you read it? Here's the link again:

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/collusion/chron.htm

Do you dispute that the British side killed over 1,000 innocent civilians?

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163516#Comment_121163516

You're clearly trying to cloak what your real narrative is here. Spell it out.

Is your real narrative that people in the south didn't give a **** about Catholic victims in the north?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163588#Comment_121163588

He distinguished between Zombie, a song born out of concern for victims, and Celtic Symphony, a song used to support a terrorist organisation.

Most reasonable people would agree with the distinction he made.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163575#Comment_121163575

What is wrong with associating Sinn Fein with the Warrington atrocities? They supported them.

Nobody is associating voters with the Warrington atrocities, it is just important that anyone who votes for Sinn Fein is fully informed. If they continue to vote for Sinn Fein, once fully informed, that is their choice.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163532#Comment_121163532

Ah yes, the attempt to muddy the waters by claiming the British Army and the UDA were interchangeable.

You would be more accurate claiming the PIRA and MI5 were interchangeable.

Away with your nonsense of revisionism. I lived through those decades.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163430#Comment_121163430

Not at all. I'm happy to discuss sf politics. I'd just like to keep it separate from enjoying a match.

As for his comments, it's not clear at all which song he's referring to, but I think it's quite fair to assume from the interviews he's concerned about either being used to 'stoke the fires of the past'.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163483#Comment_121163483

I do think sport is political.

I can be a great force to bring people together and to bring communities together.

But that doesn't seem to be your 'political' intention here.

You seem more concerned with associating sf voters with the Warrington atrocities.

I think you'll find most rugby fans wouldn't support that political motivation.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163468#Comment_121163468

All from the CAIN website. Are you disputing that the British side murdered over 1,000 innocent people?

The uvf started their bombing campaign in 1966, before the PIRA even existed. They and other loyalists continued a murder and bombing campaign. They were aided by the British armed forces, specifically in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

This is all basic information on the war, have you read any books or anything on it to try to inform yourself?

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159929#Comment_121159929

I've singled out Damian Walsh (17) who was killed at the same time as Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry. Unfortunately Delores didn't write songs about all the vitims who were killed, but if you can't understand why the family of Damian Walsh are a bit aggrieved that there were no condolences, flowers, protests about his death, its pointless discussing it with you.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163426#Comment_121163426

The reality of what situation?

Sport is political. Do you think there was no political element to the 2022 World Cup?

Do you think there is no politics in the GAA?

I follow sport. I am also interested in politics. Is there a problem with this?

The Shinners are a cult, as can be demonstrated by the way the want to mock victims and shout down a song which speaks up for victims. I will keep saying it. The social media strategies of Sinn Fein and Trump are eerily similar. It's all shouting down, the attempt to use humour to glorify the indefensible.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163448#Comment_121163448

Where do you get your information from? Delusional is too weak a word to describe the contents of that post.

What bombs did the British Army plant in the North?

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163381#Comment_121163381

The idea that we "haven't heard their viewpoint" stands up about as much the notion that we haven't heard the views of middle aged Trump supporters in diners in Ohio.

The "viewpoint" that 27 years of PIRA murder was justified stands up about as much as Trump supporters' view that Trump won the 2020 election.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162665#Comment_121162665

Depends on what way you look at it. Without the PIRA, there would have been widespread ethnic cleansing in the North. The British side bombed, tortured and murdered Nationalists on a widespread scale to force them to remain within the UK. Nationalists on the North remain in the UK so I suppose you could say the loyalists/British armed forces won. But can slaughtering over 1,000 innocent people be described as winning?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163404#Comment_121163404

Yes, his comments about stoking the fire did refer to Celtic Symphony, and it is clearly a song that stokes the fires of the past.

However, Zombie is different. It speaks for victims. As he says

""I don’t often listen to music to be honest. I’m more of a news fan, rather than a music fan but I certainly wouldn’t switch it off. I didn’t know the song was allegedly written in the wake of the Warrington bombing. I only found that out until Dolores died.

"We would’ve applauded her for it. We would’ve loved to have met her to talk about it, but it never happened."

Essentially, what you are trying to do is shout down anything that looks bad for Sinn Fein, simple as that.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163379#Comment_121163379

Sorry I don't buy it. I think you're feigning ignorance to avoid the reality of the situation.

The concept is pretty simple.

Just like I don't buy your hop from 'all sport is political' and 'the shinners are a provo cult', to being an everyman sportfan.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162639#Comment_121162639

Bad comparison. A much more accurate one was they were the good guys the same way the Old IRA and the Easter rising participants were compared with the British armed forces in the 1920's.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163340#Comment_121163340

You're reading it that his comments about 'stoking the fires of the past' related to singing Celtic Symphony.

In fairness i can actually see that the way the article is worded.

But i don't think so. Here's from I presume the same interview but with more detail.

"I didn’t know the Irish rugby fans were singing it and I think probably a great many of them would have no idea what its origins were or what it was about. I would like to think that is the case, rather than singing it as some kind of anthem in support of a conflict we all hope has ended."

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/father-warrington-bombing-victim-zombie-31026209

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163381#Comment_121163381

As a historian, I am sure that you will understand that differences in historical context lead to different conclusions about similar events and incidents separated by decades?