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Child Item

Temple street hospital using unauthorised devices

Floppybits

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I did a search but couldn't find anything.

Absolutely scandalous what has gone at Temple Street hospital in treating kids with spinal complications. How could anyone in their right mind think it was ok to use unauthorised devices on the kids during surgery. I heard Roisin Shortall say on Newstalk that some of the items used were bought in a hardware shop, FFS.

https://www.thejournal.ie/review-spinal-surgery-temple-street-6171560-Sep2023/

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Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127267#Comment_121127267

How would they recognise the difference. They hardly had a sticker from Woodies on them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127357#Comment_121127357

The hospital doesn't store a lot of these impact. They are typically deliver in set per surgery. This is bizarre, as mentioned they were not going to be paying out of their pocket

A friend of mine works for a major medical implant company. Part of his role is to supervise surgery. He brings the implants, tools, hardware. Ensure correct tools are used, etc. They deliver a new set for every surgery as in past a hospitals mixed up a set of 5mm "screwdrivers" and 6mm "screwdrivers" - and both were sued. The control they insist on to protect everyone involved is insane. Springs from woodies? Wtf. I really hope these were an external implant (not that it makes it ok)

PokeHerKing

The HSE have emphasised the doctor is not currently performing surgeries.....

I should hope fcuking not. Something terrifyingly casual about that statement.

Robxxx7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128430#Comment_121128430

Don't think it was a smartass quip, as i heard on the radio some items were purchased from woodies .. i'm sure it said that on yesterdays RTE news report on the radio .. i remember at the time thinking wtf !

almostover

I work as a design engineer in the medical device industry, this story was doing the rounds yesterday at work. It's beyond shocking. The surgeon in question was purchasing springs from an industrial supplies company in the UK and using them as implants. These springs were intended for use in industrial applications and in no way suitable for implantation. Apparently there is a Dutch company doing research work on spring type implants for degenerative spine disease and the surgeon in question decided to follow suit but implanted industrial springs in children. It's disgusting.

There are onerous regulatory hurdles to be cleared to release a medical device to market in the EU, especially an implant. And for very good reason. These springs would have been made of a metal that would have had no biocompatibility assessed and could have caused blood poisoning, sepsis, bone infections etc. Not to mention that there would have been zero testing done on the ability of the springs to bear the loads that the body will put on them. Also, if the springs were too stiff / strong a phenomenon called stress shielding can occur. This is where the loading of the body is borne more by the implant than the bone itself, due to the high strength of the implant. The result is that the bone structure weakens and dies as it no longer has a load bearing function.

The surgeon in question should be tried and jailed for a long time. I feel for the families involved to be subjected to this type of negligence. The damning indictment on our health system is again that genuine whistle-blowers seem to have been given the pariah treatment. Disgusting scenario on all fronts.

anonymouscactus

Very hard to read stories like this and not despair for Ireland's direction. This country is awash with money we're told and yet there are thousands of kids with extra needs waiting on school support. There are thousands of adults with disabilities waiting on residential places, being cared for by elderly parents. Thousands of homeless families. And, this story, the most degrading atrocity of all, some c*nt of a surgeon putting parts from Woodie's into childrens' bodies. The social contract only applies to some - to the class that never lose their pensions and never have to show accountability. The rest of us can f*ck off.

TheValeyard

Wow. Story is absolutely horrific. Those poor kids, and those parents that lost their child. One of the worst things that anyone can experience.

Serious and i wonder if criminal questions need to be asked here.

Deregos.

Let us not lose sight of the fact that Temple Street is a fantastic hospital with generally excellent staff, who really do excellent work in helping cure our very sick children and saving their lives.

I was in that very same scoliosis department just last week with my son, and the doctors and nurses we dealt with could not have been more attentive and professional.

[Deleted User]

It’s beyond frightening to think something like that could happen in a hospital. It seems there’s utter chaos going on in healthcare here.

How could anyone do something like that?! Those poor kids.

StrawbsM

Who’s in charge of what medical devices and implements come in and out of a surgical theatre? Is there anybody doing it?

With all the managers and admin staff within the HSE, I would have thought that there would be a department connected to theatres that knows what surgery is scheduled, what medical equipment* is required, what medical equipment* has been used and what medical equipment* is left in the theatre at the end.

I’m using medical equipment to cover everything including dressings, swabs, etc.

[Deleted User]

There are both Irish and EU regulations around medical devices. They should be absolutely adhered to.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128430#Comment_121128430

Why did you think it was smart ass.

It's the main question to ask you idiot.

I've not seen any explanation yet.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128439#Comment_121128439

Currently. Savita Halappanavar's OB/GYN is practicing today.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128668#Comment_121128668

These are some of the questions that need to be answered. People be need to feel confident when going in for an operation no matter how minor it is that proper procedures are in place and religiously adhered too. How did this person manage to unauthorised devices into the operating theatre and then using them. Also how was this person allowed to continue to work while being under investigation?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128581#Comment_121128581

We all know there are great people in the Health Service doing great work but this sort of incident cannot be ignored and does beg the question what else is going on that is not known about?

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128762#Comment_121128762

Probably because the alternative is to cancel/postpone operations. Rock and a hard place really.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128581#Comment_121128581

It's a f*cking sh!thole. The A&E department in there is an absolute disgrace. Still using covid as an excuse to only allow 1 parent in, because there's no space in the kip. Hours waiting with children in pain and misery. You'd see better in a field hospital in sub saharan Africa.

The sooner they finish the new children's hospital the better, whatever it bloody costs.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128777#Comment_121128777

Because of this there have been no operations for a year at the hospital.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128789#Comment_121128789

That's the spinal surgeries. Just to be clear.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128768#Comment_121128768

Really I don't agree with that. There are maybe some good people doing their required work; of course, it's very easy to get overexcited when adequate work is done, when the average is very low. HSE pays out hundreds of millions for damages - what does that imply? Mental health care in Ireland is largely nonexistant and is handled minimally, where the business strategy seems to be pay off the victims.

It really seems that a serious competence review and concomitant layoffs would be the way to go. Then raise salaries. Why keep poor performers on staff?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128796#Comment_121128796

One of the biggest failures when setting up the HSE was not having redundancies when the health boards were brought under the one roof as what would have happened in most companies in the private sector. There are were too many wasters in the HSE usually in management, get rid of those and then get the people in to the frontlines were most of the staff is needed.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128828#Comment_121128828

But, on average, are the front line people good, or just average? It's why I think a lot of improvement can happen without spending more money - get rid of the wasters and the poor performers, like the one using unauthorized materials in delicate surgery, ffs. Consequence-free careers are a bad thing.

greenspurs

Was just spoken about on Today Fm news ...

Treatment abroad ...

BrianD3

I did some looking online to see if the surgeon has been named - there are not many surgeons doing this work in Temple Street so it is a short list of possibles. There is a post on twitter about a surgery that was postponed because a particular named surgeon had left - yet he's still named as a staff member on CHI website.

Also I found an article on extra.ie on innovative surgical approaches in Ireland for spina bifida and there was an Xray of an implanted device with several springs which looked like they were inside the patient's body.

I'd say what has happened here is that somebody has lost the run of themselves and made a fundamental error (not necessarily because of greed and maybe with good intentions influenced by hubris) Compounded by the HSE's shambolic management and lack of oversight.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128835#Comment_121128835

I understand where you are coming from and that poor performers should always be got rid off no matter the industry but in terms of our health service it is hard to know because of the staffing issues especially for those working on the front line. Are a lot of these settlements we hear about from the HSE because of the understaffing that good staff are making mistakes because they are always under pressure. For me need they need to trim the management part and ramp up the front lines and then start taking stock of performance of and mistakes and weed out the bad. IMO it seems that the HSE are desperate to hire people that they are not even doing due diligence on those people.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129025#Comment_121129025

It's not a fundamental error though, it's criminal negligence. Using a certified medical implant offscript is one thing. Putting industrial springs into children's bodies rises well above that by any sane metric.

The full weight of the authorities need to be brought on all involved in this. Disciplinary proceedings and criminal investigation at a minimum.

I hope the families get every penny this surgeon has because I can't see his medical insurance covering this type of severe negligence.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129036#Comment_121129036

Background checks is just one of many things that the HSE and Irish Health Service is useless at. Here's a clear example. This guy arrived in Ireland in 2018 and worked in 7 Irish hospitals before it was "discovered" that he had been struck off in the UK for poor performance and racist behaviour.

https://www.thejournal.ie/doctor-seven-irish-hospitals-struck-off-in-uk-5623115-Dec2021/

Googling him for 5 seconds before employing him would have brought up several articles about him from 2015 and 2016. Maybe an inability to use Google is one of the HSE's infamous IT issues.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3359106/Syrian-surgeon-said-Indian-doctors-allowed-clean-toilets-downfall-NHS-struck-off.html

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/syrian-surgeon-said-indian-doctors-6944202

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/626740/Racist-Syrian-doctor-Indians-clean-toilets-struck-off-Ragheb-Nouman

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128854#Comment_121128854

Have seen it myself too first hand. Most are diligent, intelligent, empathetic and professional. But as in all professions there are cowboys who's ego makes their decisions.

JRant

I see The Ditch have named the surgeon involved.

Baba Yaga

horrific what those children must be going through still...in what world does a doctor/surgeon decide its ok to put springs from woodies into a kid?

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129691#Comment_121129691

In the upside down world of today where horrible behaviours do not really have horrible repercussions, and people know it.