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Heating with electric rads and no gas boiler for now

DC999

Hey, adding this here in case it helps others. It’s how we’re using electric rads in the house at the moment so the gas boiler doesn’t need to come on (or we can use it less). I’m only 4 month into my solar journey and still delighted to be learning. Part of the reason for solar was to reduce our homes emissions, plus save a few quid.

Mostly these electric rads run from solar during the day (as they are using low wattage on the setting I use). Granted it’s been mild up to now (mid-Nov). It’s only the last few days we’ve seen it drop below 10 degrees. So this week is the 1st real test!

I don’t have a battery. So I’m trying to use as much of the solar when available. Otherwise I have to buy it back again at a higher cost. It’s not so much penny pinching as seeing how much I can wring out of the solar install. I like seeing can I make stuff run better! Or OCD my other half might call it 😊

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unkel

It's actually very simple, @zg3409. The eddi has two outputs that you can prioritise. My mate here has one to his hot water (up to 3kW) and then when that is hot, the other output of up to 3kW is triggered and dumps electricity into a storage heater that is on a timed release. His house is empty during the day but the storage heaters are programmed to release heat before people come home from school and work

All of this only works well if you have a substantial PV array though. Eddi is a relatively cheap device (about €360 with trade discount before VAT) and install is simple. So if you have a huge PV array, payback of this is very quick with today's gas en electricity prices.

Also your point about gas being cheaper than electricity depends a lot on what plans you are on. Personally I pay 8c for night rate electricity, which I store in my battery and use for heating the house during the day. I pay 15c for gas

And on a glorious day like today, my PV is heating all my hot water at the moment and from about mid day I will hook the car up and get a few days worth of driving into it from PV too

bullit_dodger

You can actually do it "on the cheap" without an Eddi too - albeit you need a little bit of coding skills.

From your solar installation telemetry you can see how much is being exported, once it reaches a certain threshold you can enable (say) a 1Kw heater in your living room to turn on and raise the temperature of that room to say 20c. All you need is a smart plug which you can automate. I don't do this, but I use the same technique to turn on/off some crypto mining achieving roughly the same thing.

The main thing is that heating with electricity and solar panels is a viable strategy. It's probably not a runner for smaller solar installations, but for people with 6Kwp or above, they often have plenty of excess power.

JayBee66

I wish there was an online site where you can enter what you have (i.e. 6.4KW of panels E/W, 5KW battery, no gas (rural), malfunctioning and badly installed oil boiler, rotten wood from the river in the stove) and then be shown what the cost of ownership for n years would be for say, far infra red panels, electric convection heaters, high temperature heat pump.

I'll try and spreadsheet something but I'll probably be way off in accuracy. I was quoted about 5K to have FIR installed in HALF the house by you know who and then you are using 4 times the electricity compared to a heat pump. I know there are dirt cheap FIR panels on Amazon but not so after import duties and would they last as long as European made ones. I have a quote, after grant, of 10K for a high temperature 8KW heat pump, which sounds great value to me but I have no idea how much electricity it's going to use.

My number one metric is to keep She Who Must Be Obeyed happy at all times. I don't think a piecemeal approach is going to work. Filling the house with FIR panels and oil-filled radiators on wheels when every room has a functioning radiator in it (or, at least, would have if there was a derrick attached to the useless oil boiler.) I walk around the house in t-shirt and shorts when it's sub-zero outside and 12C in the house. She wears more than a polar expedition. She feels the cold even in summer!

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471802#Comment_120471802

Good points. In the longer term I won't heat with just electric rads. Can't offset any to a cheap night rate. And paying to heat during peak times on a smart tariff would cost a bomb. That's where the heat pump wins if you have UFH and run it on night rate. Plus the energy needed during the day will have a COP multiplier.

In Dec my solar generated 90kWh only. And 2 electric rads used 350kWh combined. So day or peak rate would not be kind on the pocket.

randombar

Hi Folks, in between heating systems at the moment and with the cold season coming I'm trying to figure out what the best solution is for a temporary solution. No panels either currently, just a cheap night saver rate. Guessing a storage heater but that's not very temporary. Maybe a couple of those electric rads? Have a fire in the sitting room, it's only the large kitchen downstairs really? Upstairs I'll just use a few electric blankets I guess??

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110601#Comment_121110601

Do you still have the oil tank?

An option could be buying a second hand oil burner?

Back boiler?

A noisy option (and possibly pricy) is a portable air con that also does heat. Might get you a cop of 2ish but would need a good way of venting it though

randombar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110763#Comment_121110763

Was thinking of the second hand boiler but I'd have to cango footpaths to get at the pipework and need a sparks for rewiring etc.

Would need to buy a stove with a back boiler and then move it on when I get the A2W in.

In my head I'm thinking I'll need this solution for 4 weeks, hope it's not longer than that.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111076#Comment_121111076

Throw a few oil radiators on smart plugs if it's only for 4-6 weeks. I don't bother with the heating until nearly November if even then! An extra layer will do.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111076#Comment_121111076

If it's just for a month, trial and error. Try the infrared panels and report back!

They all have a cop of 1 so they all should perform as well as the others. Maybe just feel different.

randombar

Yup, might see what's popping up on adverts and throw a smart plug on em.

DC999

This is my original post. So if you drop uo to the start you can see what works for me. Anything that puts out heat at this time of year is enough. Dehumidifier even puts out heats but needs to run all day to heat a small wfh office. Ours only uses 180w.

Dishwasher on a timer is a heater to heat kitchen so it's finished when you wake up.

I got an 350w infrared panel for cold wfh office. It's brill. Don't use normal rad in that room now.

Also use electric rads on a smart plug.

We didn't use any heating until Nov last year. Ok it was cold then but Ukraine stuff meant there were worries about heating costs over winter. So we suffered cold for a bit first.

unkel

Few of those €15 Powercity special 1000W heaters, on smart plugs, job done. I wouldn't bother starting to buy fancier solutions or second hand stuff

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111466#Comment_121111466

If you need a few cheap smart plugs here's a 4 pk for around €18 when you apply the 50% off voucher https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B1WT999V?

randombar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121114921#Comment_121114921

15????

con747

The only heater I would trust leaving on is the oil filled radiator types, I wouldn't trust a fan or halogen or such like if not in the house. Seen a few cheapo ones that have gone on fire over the years. Depends on what you buy though.

Jonathan

Have a few Kasa smart plugs for sale over on the for sale thread if you're interested. Work out of the box with Home Assistant, if that's your thing.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121114978#Comment_121114978

Or Amazon for a tenner (pounds)

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115036#Comment_121115036

Plus one to that.

Screwfix have a cheap 500w oil filled rad. 500w won't do a whole heap unless it's on a lot. But perfect in Sept and early spring when want some heating but just in the sitting room and don't need to turn central heating on.

unkel

Yeah I agree those supercheap heaters are not the safest. Grand if you are sitting reading beside it, but not on a timer in the middle of the night

DC999

Day1 of our heating season for winter 2023 starts. 3 electric rads plugged in to heat 3 rooms (2 downstairs and WFH upstairs). Still working off this setup (oil filled rads connected to a separate thermostat plug. Means the temp in the room stays constant. It can stay within a ½ degree or less). Post2 in this thread: Heating with electric rads and no gas boiler for now — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

And using my infrared heater as a 3rd rad in the WFH room. Which is the only place that the infrared is perfect for in our house. I’m using the 350w one and it’s perfect in a small room when you’re close to the heater. Like 3 feet or less away. Need to be line of sight with these as heats only what’s in front of it, not the air (which takes a little to get your head around). Infrared ones only have on and off. Not low, medium and high like other electric rads: Coldfighting 450W Far Infrared Panel Heater - Electric Heater Panel - Wall Mounted - Ceiling Mounted, Suitable for Indoor, Living Room, Bedroom - CO2-Free Energy Efficient Electric Heater : Amazon.co.uk: Home & Kitchen

Gas will remain off for sometime. Or we’ll schedule it to come on when we get up and bedtime. So 2 hours a day max (for the gas boiler) would be fine now until it gets colder.

Careful!!! Electric heating can use a lot of juice 1) on a high setting and 2) if left on too long. So take the time to set it up and check it every so often. If someone turns the heating to max, it can use several times the wattages compared to the low setting (3 times more on the ones I have).

And it’s not useful for people with an expensive day rate, but a cheaper night rate (when people are in bed and don’t need heating). Unless you’ve a monster battery to run the rads during the day. I’m on a 24hr tariff still.

JayBee66

We use desiccant dehumidifiers to heat the house at this time of year. They remove the damp and have a small heater in them to liberate the water from the desiccant so it flows into collection tank. The heater warms the room better than a compressor dehumidifier and is quieter.

Humidity is what makes you feel colder in winter and muggy in summer. Ireland being well-known for its dampness, all year round. We might raise the temperature of the house by two degrees in summer but don't feel it because the humidity is lower. In winter, we keep the door of the room in use closed and run a dehumidifier. Warms the room to about 19C and reduces the humidity to about 45% from about 65%. 19C with 65% humidity would feel colder than 19C with 45% humidity.

We only heat rooms in use and aim to keep the rest of the house above 16C, which is fine for bedrooms.

There's a wood heater in the living room for persistent sub-zero nights and a fanless ceramic core radiator that I mounted on a wooden frame to make it portable for use around the house. The ceramic radiator might be used in the office or herself's snore-free bedroom. I'm happy in a colder bedroom so long as it's been dehumidified to take the damp feel off the duvet.

Our 5KW battery is more than capable of running a dehumidifier during the evening before being recharged at 11PM with cheap rate electricity.

I might import a cheap 1200W infra-red panel from the UK. I'm not paying the extortionate amount that pushy fella wants. I'd use the panel to irradiate an internal wall with excess power during the day so it re-radiates during the evening. Home Assistant will monitor export rather than an Eddi. The money for which will buy some heaters.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246719#Comment_121246719

Class, I'll try the same with my dehumidifier. If it makes the room warmer, that's a huge win. I've a compressor one and have it on a thick rubber matt to dampen the sound. Too noisy vibration-wise otherwise. Plus it puts out 30c+ heat (ok, from a very small space but it does actually generate heat while removing water) - win, win.

I point my WFH infrared heater to the wall and it bounces back at me. Too warm when facing it directly. And it then radiates heat back into the room - so it's not lost as you say.

unkel

Compressor dehumidifier has a COP of around 1.4 too, so you'll save a bit of electricity there 😁

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247257#Comment_121247257

As @unkel says, there's a bit of COP with a compressor dehumidifier but for some reason the heating is better with desiccant dehumidifiers. I can see with my IR camera that the compressor has a hotter core than the desiccant but it doesn't get out into the room as quickly. The heat from the desiccant's PTC heating element gets blown straight through the desiccant and out into the room. Whereas, the heat in the compressor pump tends to stay trapped in the compressor and takes longer to get out thus allowing time for the room to cool. The air coming out of the desiccant dehumidifier always feels warmer.

Possibly, it takes time to build up the higher temperature in the compressor and if it was vented constantly then the running temperature would be lower than the desiccant. Also, the desiccant is getting additional energy input so will always generate more heat though not as efficiently.

I have one compressor and two desiccant dehumidifiers. The compressor's role is always damp removal. I leave the other two where there is need for heat too but it's only ever COP ~1. Still, the heat is free and the equipment doesn't cost anything like that of a heat pump.

Today, the house core temperature is about 17C but the living room was at 19C thanks to dehumidification. I watched Only Connect in t-shirt and shorts. The compressor was in herself's bedroom, sucking it dry but only keeping the room at 17C. Fine for sleeping. There is a Demand Controlled Vent in that bedroom, which I installed this summer. I'll report on its effectiveness in spring but it's already made a difference with air freshness.

That's the first cold snap dealt with. It's going to get a little warmer at night for a while. We'll see what the longer cold snaps have in store this winter. Ideally, I just want to put in one charge of wood in the stove each evening, when the time comes, as opening the stove door to refuel it is bad for my respiratory system and that puts me back on the antihistamines. I might buy some fanless 500W heaters and when the humidity is below 50%, get Home Assistant turn off the dehumidifier and run a fanless heater (which will have more power than the desiccant PTC heater and will raise the room temperature closer to 20C - herself's comfort zone) until the humidity creeps back over 60%

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115036#Comment_121115036

Ive seen a few fan heaters and convection heaters go on fire over the years. Also saw an oil filled heater start smoking heavily once. I think it was probably left on its side at some point. They need to always be upright.

But at least with the oil filled rads its much rarer to have a fire and not as susceptible as fan heaters or convection heaters to have fluff blow into them or something left on them or fall in front of them. I would never leave any heater other than an oil filled one unattended.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248908#Comment_121248908

+1 to that “I would never leave any heater other than an oil filled one unattended.” But I’d add where there is an open heating element. I’d leave an infrared heater on unattended as there are no moving parts (granted it’s useless when there is no one in front of it to heat). I'd be very conscious of the potential for fire.

I’ve our electric rads on a separate thermometer plug. So when the room gets above the set temp, it turns off the plug on the rad. Meaning there is another safety ‘check’ in place there. The oil rads are supposed to turn off when on their side, but that’s down to a sensor which might not work – so I wouldn’t trust it. And they have a thermostat on them and are supposed to cut out when they reach that temp. Again, I wouldn’t trust it for something that is on even at night when we're in bed. Not on something that costs maybe only €50.

JayBee66

I bought a Glen 2150 500W heater. Can be had from Screwfix for €64 or £52 from Amazon. Runs in a bedroom at the north end of the bungalow on night rate electricity, paid for with credit from the summer's feed in (3200KWh!). The heater is put on a low setting to keep the room at just over 16C. I'd say it uses about 2-2.5KWh of power during the 7 hours it's on for.

Unless the price of heat pumps falls dramatically, I can't see us getting one. Yes, it may (depending on weather and quality of installation) produce 4 times the heat for the same energy input as the convector heater above but the up front cost is a turn off. I don't like the idea of installers/manufacturers gouging our savings. They are going to want to replace our paper thin, single wall radiators and maybe add a few as well.

I deliberately avoided a "one-stop" approach to our renewable retro-fit so that I could evaluate each change made. First was the aluminium-clad wood framed triple glazing, which was half the price I was expecting. No more draughts. No more condensation.

Next were the desiccant dehumidifiers, needed after the draughts were removed. They also generate a little heat, keeping the house dry and about 16C. This resulted in a need for cheap electricity and so the PV went in. After a year of teething problems (which I solved rather than the installers) the PV is now working perfectly and integrated with Home Assistant.

I then decided to unblock those vents I had closed off because the air was being replaced far too quickly and making the house cold. After being quoted €8000+ for Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation, I went for €2300 of Demand Controlled Ventilation delivered on a pallet. I installed the wall vents and already the air is fresher but not cold. A gentle trickle comes through the controlled vents and the sound baffles do a great job. I'll install the wet room extractors in the spring when the cluster flies leave the attic.

A wood stove is used in the living room at night, charged with one load of twigs and logeens from the river. I used to make briquettes from wood shavings and newspaper but my back doesn't like working the press so I'll have to automate the press with a car jack and motor. The briquettes are great but need a high wood content (50% plus) to maximise heat, length of burn and minimise ash.

The house was built the old fashioned way (locally built by a relative of a relative of a relative) and for a 21st century house there is terrible heat bridging at the top of the insulated cavity wall. I shall experiment with the bedroom at the north end and cover the walls with Wallrock fibre insulated wallpaper. About 4mm thick. An independent painter and decorator on YouTube has it in his house and loves it so worth a try. If it slows down heat loss and we use less electricity to heat the room then that'll be great.

The aim has been to heat, power and air condition the house cheaply but effectively and so far so good. The house had a BER of C3 and when last evaluated was B1 but is probably into the As now.

unkel

Totally agree with your attitude, @JayBee66. There are heatpumps and heatpumps though. Personally I have no desire to spend the guts of €10k on an air to water install, even if there is a decent subsidy on it. I will likely go air to water with a couple of split units, total cost roughly the same as a gas boiler replacement, no subsidy on this though and use cheap electric COP 1 heating in the rest of the house and my large garden room / office

Currently I use half electric heating, half gas. Herself likes a few hours of the gas fire on in the living room (coldest room in the house) in the evening. Gas central heating is used sparingly, we never have radiators in bedrooms on

One thing I don't understand from your post (probably because I'm a bit thick and not good at things mechanical) is:

"I then decided to unblock those vents I had closed off because the air was being replaced far too quickly" - how can the air be replaced quickly when the vents are closed off?

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121289630#Comment_121289630

I had blocked the original vents because the air was being replaced too quickly. The warped PVC frames had effectively replaced the vents so the vents were no longer needed and blocked with old tea towels. After replacing the windows, the house had become too airtight and so in went the DCV. I fed the 100mm DCV tubes through the 110mm tubes of the former vents along with a squirt of expanding foam.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121289573#Comment_121289573

Good write up, cheers.

I have PV but a lot of other stuff to sort in an old cold house. Like you, will be as diy as I can do. Won't be one stop shop for sure.