the person who can afford a €5000 car to do high mileage wont be buying a 10-15yo BEV with degraded SOC and much-reduced range.
they'll still be buying an ICE or a hybrid, even 20 years from now.
these days we look at dirt cheap Ioniq’s as a great EV bargain, but in reality that’s where all the current batch of mid-range EVs are headed in the coming years.
Hasn't that always been the way for mid-range cars?
I don’t think people paying €40k for a Niro expected this much depreciation
Same for ICE. All mid range will be dirt cheap in the coming years. Kinda obvious.
Anybody buying any car should expect 50% value after 3 years. Ice or EV. If you thought you were on a gravy train, you are deluded. That’s the normal curve.
It don’t matter the means of fueling the car.
I know the depreciation curve, that’s not the point I’m making - The €5k ICE car will do the same range when it’s 15 years old as the day it was new.
the EV won’t; because chemistry.
My point is that there would need to be a huge disincentive for the €5-8k car driver to choose an EV that may not suit their needs, rather than an ICE.
the new EVs will continue to improve efficiency and chemistry, while the old battery continue to degrade a few % each year.
we can argue over the rate of degradation, but even if a new car today has 80% soc after 10 years (very generous?), that means most €40-50k standard range EVs today will have a realistic winter range in 2033 around 200-240km, while the 2033 EV family car will probably be doing 5-600km.
It’s a huge gap, that continues to get wider - which doesn’t happen with an ICE. That’s all I’m saying.
only a tiny % of the country’s 2.4m drivers have €35-60k to spend on a new family car. Everyone else expects to get the same car, features & range for a much cheaper price.
currently the only €5k EVs on the second hand market are old 1st gen Nissan Leafs which didn’t have great range to begin with. Battery chemistry has also improved a lot since then. Other older EVs like the Ioniq haven’t suffered from the same range reduction.
However, the market for used EVs is still very small. As it gets bigger we should see more repair specialists who can diagnose battery issues, replace problem cells, etc.
ICE cars also suffer ‘range’ reduction over time due to wear and efficiency loses.
Some cars seem to hold their value better. Three years ago I bought a 181 Kia Niro Hev for €21K. Put on about 35K km on it.
Traded it in last week for €21K. The retail price of cars has gone up quite a bit in that time.
All cars went up since Brexit , some hold value cos of demand, others dropped nearly 40% in 9 months like my mum's BMW 225xe, because of no demand and a new version coming out, that was some deal.
Ah the new chemistry faff, I believed that till I saw a done deal add only 9% gone and that's better than the rest of the cars with new chemistry.
Them 225’s were always a loser. A compliance car. Not the best from BMW and they will be a hard sell in the future.
I don’t understand your second paragraph unfortunately.
regarding ICE cars also having range reduction, there’s decades of data to show this simply isn’t the case.
Only a tiny example, we've an old 520d outside that did just over 1,000 kms full-to-empty when we got it new 9 years ago and it will still do 1,000 today.
batteries will degrade, the only unknown is the amount of degradation.
look at all the DoneDeal or carzone ads for older EVs that are advertising the range as the WLTP/manufacturer number when new.
dealers need a way do a real world range test on EVs before taking them into stock - can you imagine the uproar from sellers?!!
ICE: motor loses power over time, fuel capacity remains the same.
EV: fuel capacity reduces over time, motor power remains the same
My Tesla is as fast today to 100km as it was the day we collected it.
My BMW is not.
Sure they've been lying about fuel efficiency for years, do you think they'll change for going electric 😉
I agree that garages should be able to provide a battery report for every EV they sell. In many cars it seems to be available from the UI or via OBD scanner
It's generally an estimated value of degradation, only real way is to drive the car down to close to zero but garages aren't going to do that
Even an estimate is better than nothing, customers need to know to request this and be wary when they see a 5 year old EV advertising WLTP range
Maybe it's been treated well and the battery is almost at full capacity, but the seller should prove it rather than expect buyers to take their word for it
Couldn’t agree more - there’s a gulf in information between the new EV buyer and the 2nd hand buyer.
no-one buying a second hand EV knows what it’s current range is.
I believe there are OBI tests now that can give a real calculation of a battery capacity. That’s what garages need to be doing.
What’s the first thing people look for with the original Leaf?… they check how many of the 10 SOC bars are showing.
It’s going to be hugely important to a stable market of older EVs
Apart from the first sentence the rest of your post is gibberish.
a 10year old fast family EV with substantially reduced range isn’t really of use to many buyers.
we forget that boards.ie is an echo chamber. We’re all well educated on EVs, and they suit our needs - it makes no sense to us why 82% of 2023 new car buyers chose an ICE/hybrid car.
These people aren’t fools. The vast majority of people don’t care about cars, and they want value.
The test systems I've seen either require you to do several cycles of driving the car down to zero and charged to full
I think VW have a bench testing version (which probably only works for VW EVs) which effectively does the same thing but realistically would require a few days
I don't realistically see any garages signing up to that for every second hand EV they get. Typically they don't do any more than a basic inspection
A basic inspection of the non EV related mechanicals only. I've been to a couple of garages recently to view used M3s and the guys haven't a clue about the EV aspects of the car other than its grand, just charge it. In one smaller garage the guy hadn't a clue how to navigate the menus on the screen other than to imput a key code to get started. This lack of bacis EV knowledge is probably not a major issue for nearly new EVs but will certainly become more problematic as they age
Tesla has a battery test built into the service mode of the car. But it involved a deep discharge of the battery while plugged in and followed up with a full charge cycle.
it takes a day or 2 to process.
Completely agree, there should be a standard way to calculate range for 2nd EVs, maybe as part of an updated NCT. That would remove some of the uncertainty for buyers. Of course that also exists for ICE buyers, just different issues.
Yeah I don't see a sales manager of a used car dealership being too enthusiastic about waiting 2 days for a battery health report before he can even put up an ad on DoneDeal
Maybe it'll be part of the trade in valuation, owner has to prove the battery degradation isn't worse than a certain amount to get the full valuation
Imagine asking this lad to do a full battery health check 😁
https://www.breakingnews.ie/special-report/how-do-you-know-how-good-your-evs-battery-is-1479382.html
Drive like miss daisy for the 10 % 😂
I actually looked up the numbers on 2 (419)series cars, a touch better than the 3 (399) series, both are 300 behind the 5 series(706), the hatch back is handy, got a washing machine into mine yesterday, there is demand for them, better for my mother let some one else take the hit on depreciation, it matters less as the car ages, what she paid for hers is still cheaper than any of the 140 cars on donedeal the same age and she has use of it for 3 years now,
Then I looked up "compliance car",
A compliance car is an alternative fuel vehicle that is explicitly designed to meet tightening government regulations for low-emission vehicle sales, then it went on about EV's and how some car manufacturers, produce a compliance car sell a few of them so they can continue to sell their other cars, classic example was the RAV4 EV in California,
I would prefer if a compliance phev was the minimum standard for all cars, but then you would have problems with charging them same as EV's no drive ways, not enough chargers, etc, so I would settle for hybrid or self charging.
The 2nd paragraph refers to a 3 year old Tesla, with 91% battery, and thats better than the rest of the Tesla fleet, I thought the new chemistry eliminated that problem, it really surprised me, does that mean in 10 years time we will be looking at early Nissan leaf type degradation or in other words, same problem different chemistry.
“The 2nd paragraph refers to a 3 year old Tesla, with 91% battery, and thats better than the rest of the Tesla fleet, I thought the new chemistry eliminated that problem, it really surprised me, does that mean in 10 years time we will be looking at early Nissan leaf type degradation or in other words, same problem different chemistry.”
You seem to be taking the word of a private seller on DoneDeal as gospel? I can’t confirm nor deny the claim as I have no skin in that game but surely opinions should be Bourne from facts and not random Joe’s selling cars on DoneDeal.
But I took your comment at face value and I search donedeal. Ireland seems to have a wealth of rare cars. Some sellers have confirmed their focus was the cleanest car in the country. They even stated that”you won’t find a better example”. A treasure chest that site, I tell ya.
You explained how to test a Tesla, you also mentioned how sellers try to sell rare cars , surely he is then promoting a car with less degradation than others.
Why not just say 100% battery, as if 91% seems to be a bonus
Ah, so they're burning fuel and then staying they're getting 11.5kwh/100km. What a nonsense. Those numbers are no great shakes in my opinion plus there are timing belts /chains to worry about, gearboxes, serpentine belts etc plus oil changes, brakes and basic servicing. Then you've got to consider the PHEVs in the 3 series that have had costly battery failures so why would that not apply to the horried looking 2 series mpv thing. A complicated mess imo.
