Apologies, didn't mean physically join but as an interchange as you say, where people can flow easliy from one mode to another.
I would see the 'Wexford' Dart service being able for southbound to terminate at platform 2 and allow cross platform transfer. Some Dart trains do terminate at platform 2.
Why would the Dart be packed? There are four Rosslare trains per day, plus one to Wexford, and one to Gorey. It will not put many IC travellers off - well not compared to the extra number that would use it if extra services were put on. No train arrives in Wexford in the morning.
The purpose of the Rosslare Harbour service was to facilitate passengers from the ferries. Do these trains even meet the ferries? - any of them? - either arriving or leaving?
Higher or lower fares are a matter for IR.
That would just put people off using the Intercity train full stop.
For goodness sakes, forcing people paying higher fares on Intercity services (on trains with luggage racks and toilets) onto a packed commuter train with no such facilities for a good portion of their journey, potentially having to lug cases from one train to another (and it wouldn’t be cross-platform in Bray in one direction - it would be across the bridge) would just sound the death knell for the service.
This sort of daft notion needs to be just shelved.
Once the ICRs are reformed and, more importantly, more new drivers become available, then there ought to be scope for adding more services along the line to Wexford and Rosslare, including an early morning service from Dublin.
I would not have the commuter diesels going south of GCD, and most Wexford/Gorey IC trains turning at Bray. with cross platform transfer. However, that may not be easy to arrange - or popular with the few passengers who travel to/from Wexford. Maybe increasing the frequency might help.
The Dublin to Wexford via Waterford journey time looks to be very optimistic there, particularly when compared to the Dublin to Waterford journey time. It would require major investment on the Waterford - Rosslare line considering it is riddled with Level Crossings and without a realignment trains would have to go to Rosslare and turn back between Wexford and Waterford.
Well I probably agree, but then this (from AIRR)!...
Getting off topic for this thread anyway.
The jouney time from Wexford to Dublin via Waterford would be horrendous, nobody would use it.
No we don’t, we shouldn’t be prioritising investments in infrastructure for that sort of commuting. It is simply bad planning.
Greystones or Bray would probably be better than GCD for Rosslare trains at off peak hours. But you can’t just say Wexford, Gorey, Arklow etc shouldn’t have commuter services because they’re too far when the likes of Thurles and Athlone have many people commuting to Dublin. Yes it’s bad planning, but we just have to live with it
I’m guessing as their diesel traction with slower acceleration would clog up dart services, although some call at extra stations at peak times.
Reopening the short section between Rosslare and Waterford could provide an alternative to Rosslare-Connolly. Trains could still run from Rosslare to Bray.
The intention with the AIRR is to improve speed along the mainlines, which could make Wexford-Dublin via Waterford a realistic alternative.
If the IC Wexford trains or Commuter diesels are no quicker than Darts that stop at all stations, why do these trains not stop at Blackrock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, and GCD?
I am only suggesting that the first Wexford train returns from Bray to give Wexford a train that arrives in the morning. There are few enough trains serving Wexford - nearly as good as none at all.
“If we want to retain and make competitive commuting from Wick/Wex to Dublin, there needs to be more capacity than a dual track can probably offer.”
We absolutely do NOT want people commuting into Dublin from Wexford! It is too far for commuting, sure some mad people might do it, but it certainly isn’t something we would want to encourage.
Wicklow, sure, it is roughly just on the edge of commuting distance. Battery DART+ trains might be able to serve as far as Wicklow, which would then allow those to cross the LLB.
Ideally if they can fit both the 10 minute darts and the Rosslare service across the LLB, then great, but if it turns out it is too much for it, then we absolutely need to be prioritising the DART+ service (including potentially to Wicklow) over the Rosslare train.
Make the changes to GCD to be able to terminate Rosslare trains there. It really wouldn’t be a big deal, specially if Wicklow gets DART+, then you are only talking about true intercity passengers and GCD is still much more central then Heuston.
Metrolink will never be able to seamlessly integrate with the existing DART network as it is a fully automated system that will likely be on a different track gauge.
The best they could do in terms of linking to the dart at Shankill/Bray would be a station interchange.
But dart plus means that the LLB won't be used for intercity services so much anymore apart from a small handful of services to Wexford.
I've always felt as part of an integrated Dart and rail network, Metrolink should eventually join the Dart line around Shankill. It would open up a new corrider of passengers, east of n11 through Ballybrack, Loughlinstown, Cabinteely and onto towards Foxrock and Sandyford.
Essentially linking the whole system together. Because really through Dart+ its a stepping stone in the right direction.
Ps. Still keeping Sandyford to Fassaroe/Bray as Luas line.
But a semi-fast DART wouldn’t be any faster than other services, so it would be as well of serving all stations.
separately is there any word on when dart costal south will go to consultation.
That the LLB has speed restrictions and it being only double track does make this believable to be honest.
We want the the LLB to be all things to all people, a reasonable frequent (>10min) metro tier service for folk coming from Maynooth and Malahide to Bray/Greystones, whilst also squishing in intercity services. Its the same issue with the arguments surrounding DU, where folk want it to be a Metro and a heavy rail inter city connection. It is very hard for it to be both on a dual track line.
If we want to retain and make competitive commuting from Wick/Wex to Dublin, there needs to be more capacity than a dual track can probably offer. (Honestly a further argument that Metrolink should've been designed with the ability to extend to Bray)
So effectively, what we're saying is that diesel services is not what's causing the delays along loop-line bridge? So what's the implication? That it's not possible to achieve faster speeds through the city centre under any circumstances? I find that hard to believe. The best way to maintain a reliable service is with excessive padding in the timetable.
At least the first service could terminate at Bray, with across platform change to a waiting Dart. If it then returned to Rosslare or Wexford, the first train arriving at Wexford would arrive in the morning - at about 10 am instead of 12:15.
The Northbound Dart connection could also have limited stopping since the IC train does that anyway.
Only six train a day to Wexford, Even assuming it doubled in the coming years. the extra blockage on the line to get it from GCD to Connolly is minimal.
As others mentioned, the platform/track setup only currently supports south bound train terminations. There is no "facilities" to fuel/clear the trains. and no sidings for them to wait, and no room for same.
If we had to terminate the Wexford trains before the LLB, then they should not have filled in the extra platforms in Pearse.
Grand Canal Dock cannot be used to terminate trains from the southside, it only works for trains approaching from the northside
There are no facilities to clean or fuel trains at Pearse or Grand Canal Dock and if you get that far there is no capacity problem continuing to Connolly
Changes are a pain, you are looking at losing 25% of potential passengers with each change, changes add time and make the service look less attractive
That could work.
I don't understand why the tens of people travelling from Rosslare should be prioritised over the thousands commuting from Maynooth.
Does anyone know a realistic timeline on Ballyfermot Dart+ SW station?
Will it happen in parallel to Dart+SW or after?
Lose out how? GCD is easier / quicker to get to from city centre than Heuston. Not sure what difference it would make to most passengers.
Most European cities have intercity trains departing from different terminus, which can work fine if there are quick/easy connections with the city rail network (which there is to GCD).
Also no reason why trains can't be cleaned / serviced between GCD and Pearse? Are there not some facilities there already? Maybe not...
They won't have to use Spencer dock ...
From what I was reading half of Maynooth services will go to Spencer dock , half will go to Bray.
Similar to the Docklands when m3 parkway line opened , Irish rail had to keep saying connolly services would remain
The trains have to be serviced / swapped at Connolly.
Why should Intercity passengers who are paying higher fares lose out?
One path an hour in either direction isn’t going to cause that big an issue (assuming frequency increases).
Could we not terminate those Rosslare services at GCD? After all, if passengers from Maynooth have to use Spencer Dock.....
It should be addressed to a large degree ...so only time will tell if it means faster through-services. Most of what's currently running across LLB that isn't dart are diesel services that will become dart. There'll actually be no intercity services left crossing LLB apart from Rosslare services, of which there's what... 4 of those a day?
As far as I'm aware (and I'm open to correction here), the improvements to through-put over the LLB happened under the City Centre Resignaling project. DART+ may help further but I think this will be more through addressing issues at other locations, "greasing the wheels" on approach.
The other cities across the continent you refer to have likely separated different types of services and don't have long distance diesel trains running across a two track bridge in the city centre which is also trying to accommodate high frequency, electric trains. DART+ obviously doesn't address this issue either. Another connection between the various lines is required, a tunnelled solution will be required eventually (and no the PPT is not an alternative).
