Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Options
16970727475154

Comments

  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes, it is.

    Here is the legislation.

    Your points have been addressed and discredited.

    We have engaged with all your arguments -- including the one where you said you suddenly support the legislation because I said that I had concerns about education curricula in the US.

    Which is the worst argument in favour of this legislation I have ever come across.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    "Oh I had a giggle" is neither addressing nor disrcediting - and as usual you know this!

    The facts are simple: you and Bullitt are just getting "butthurt" as you call it because you got called out for lying and not being able to actrually debate something and attacked me and not my arguments because you can't debate the issues raised. Simple as that. And the fact that soon the laws are going to be brought in to make it harder for you to lie just makes the tears saltier :) :)

    You'll probaby post here again with a lie and some other personal crap, but I'm not gonna read it.

    Hasta la vista - my point is proven, I'm out of here, have a nice weekend. Viva la Revolution!

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Hold on, since when did this become right and left? I never mentioned anything about right or left at all, are you introducing this now to try and politically charge this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Oh I don’t want it to be anything, it’s an opinion, and one that someone is free to hold.

    Yet again though, you think it’s not hate speech etc, but someone else may very well do, because why not? Are you going to tell them how to feel when they can whatever way they please?



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This issue has nothing to do with left or right.

    Even Paul Murphy raised concerns about the legislation in the Dail.



  • Advertisement
  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    You clearly haven't even read existing legislation, let alone understand it.

    Existing legislation is the Prohibition to incitement to hatred act. Hatred. Nothing to do with violence. In fact, I challenge you to find anywhere in the act where it refers to incitement to violence.

    And I have never said anything about you and American education, what are you talking about?



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    No. It's clearly not.

    I advise you to read Section 11 of the proposed act, re the protection of freedom of expression.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is your argument that someone could take to a plinth on O'Connell Street today in front of a baying mob and incite violence against say, black people, and the Gardai would do nothing about it?

    They'd just stand aside and let it happen?

    Of course incitement to violence is outlawed in this country!



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Well you can try again, if you like?

    The last legislation you linked wasn't correct, so if you would like to link the legislation that makes incitement to violence a crime, have another go.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If you are inciting violence, you are inciting hatred at the same time.

    The legislation I quoted is accurate.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,321 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I'd say incitement to hatred is a bit hard to define. I saw in town during pride month a religous person having a sign with lgtbq=grooming. Is that incitement? I presume that is legal under current laws.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    😂😂😂

    you cannot find a single reference within that legislation to violence, not one. There is no offence of incitement to violence.

    but there should be, which you agree as you thought it already existed, and you had no issue with it. Therefore, you have no issue with the enactment of a prohibition on incitement to violence.

    it's amazing how many people are actually in favour of the legislation, when they actually find out what it is about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I don’t think you’ve a clue what you even want this legislation to say.

    Ive posted a good few examples now that contradict everything you say, everything. You try rebut what’s in the legislation despite the document being clear as day.

    It’s tedious interacting with you, you’re against a wall with this debate and you really can’t see what this legislation does at all. You just don’t like opinions that differ from yours, simple as that.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    I think you have this completely backwards and I doubt very much you have read or understand the legislation.

    It's ok to change your mind you know, I wasn't on-board with it either, until I actually studied it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Maybe take your own advice there, you’ve demonstrated time and time again you’ve no clue the real impact this legislation would have. You’ve had to use extreme examples to try validate you position, so using only extremes isn’t a very strong position to be in, is it?

    You want opinions that differ with yours silenced, and you don’t care of the broader repercussions either. It’s sad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Case in point, no argument at all in here about the legislations, just a post packed with “feelings”, and then heads off in a huff.

    Sees an opinion that differs to theirs, says “my point is proven” (it’s not), and throws in some jargon. Off ya pop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    IMG_6055.jpeg

    Here, black and white, line 3. Can you see it? Take your time, it’s there, keep looking.



  • Site Banned Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Obviously, there's a paywall on that but I'm including a point that I've read in the print version to explain the posting of that link on this thread:

    Linehan expressed concern about the hate-speech legislation that is proposed by Helen McEntee. He described the legislation as a "con".

    He fears that the legislation will be used as a a tool to neutralise robust discussion of the Gender Recognition Act of 2015.

    Will the legislation, assuming that it become law, have the capacity to be used as a tool for the purpose that Linehan fears that it will be?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    It's the fear of arrest not the possibility of conviction that these laws are designed for. It'll stop the average Joe not the hardened Harry's of this world. Instead the average Joe will wait a vent at the next referendum where they can stick one to the man.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You’re correct in stating that having to use extreme examples to try to validate your position isn’t a very strong position to be in. It’s like when you gave this example earlier by way of demonstrating the real world impact of the legislation:

    Example for you then, a priest says that all homosexuals must be cast out as they live in sin, and how it’s written in the bible. Would you have that priest arrested and the bible banned from shops?


    Here’s how that extreme example actually played out in the real world:

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kerry-priest-says-gay-politicians-going-to-hell-if-they-dont-repent-1386373.html


    He was just basically ignored, in spite of all the media attention which hoped to make something of it. He wasn’t arrested, he wasn’t even cautioned. Even the Bishop was mortified for him 😂

    The bishop on Tuesday apologised for the comments made by Fr Sheehy, saying he was aware of “the deep upset and hurt” the comments had caused. Bishop Browne said the views expressed were not representative of Christianity.


    To which he responded by claiming, similar to what you’re suggesting, that anyone who disagrees with his views, wants to silence him:

    Fr Sheehy also said the Bishop of Kerry was muzzling the truth in order to appease people who did not want to face reality.

    The intent of the legislation isn’t to silence anyone, it’s intent couldn’t be clearer, and primarily what it’s intended to do is repeal the current legislation and replace it with updated legislation which reflects the needs of modern Irish society. It’s practically a copy and paste job of the current legislation, with a few minor tweaks. The real world impact you’re imagining is just that - it’s not real, it’s entirely in your imagination.



  • Advertisement
  • Site Banned Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭political analyst


    That doesn't answer my question. Gardaí can't make an arrest on the basis of one person's accusation on its own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    My example actually happened in the real world, as you proved. It’s not nearly as extreme as what the other poster tried to use and it actually happened, so there is that.

    Was it ignored? Made the news, didn’t it? That priest was on the radio as well, wasn’t he?

    He is free to say that all he wants, as he should be. Silencing him would infringe on everyone’s own right to listen and make their own mind up, we don’t need anyone, or law, to tell us what we can and can’t hear.

    You’re comparing apples to oranges, I’m afraid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    Yes they can, they have multiple powers of arrest under various laws which they can use. If I stand in the street telling everyone the sky is falling down and I refuse to move on I can be arrested. If during my interaction with a member of AGS I touch them, I can be arrested, even if they instigate the contact. It's an old templemor tactic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I’m not comparing apples to oranges at all. You gave an extreme example by way of making your point about what you consider will be the real world impact of this legislation, that anyone who doesn’t share your opinion doesn’t see.

    The point wasn’t that your example happened, the point was that what you’re claiming would be the outcome, didn’t happen, nor would it happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,241 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    You are aware that the legislation hasn’t been implemented yet, right?

    My example (which happened, which is why I used it), isn’t extreme, it happened. It’s an example of people hearing something they don’t like, and potentially using the legislation (if it’s implemented) to cry hate speech, when all he is doing is his job. I clearly don’t agree with why he says, but I wouldn’t agree at all with stopping him for saying it, or have him not say it due to someone being “offended”.



  • Site Banned Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭political analyst


    What happens when one person accuses another of rape? Is the complainant's accusation on its own enough grounds to arrest the person who is accused?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It IS extreme, by virtue of the fact that it’s rare, over the top, sensationalist rhetoric expressed solely for the purpose of eliciting a reaction.

    The outcome you’re claiming would happen, didn’t happen, so questioning whether I’m aware that the legislation hasn’t been enacted yet is neither here nor there when it would be no different in those circumstances than current legislation. Nobody cried hate speech or any of the rest of it, and he sure as hell (no pun intended) wasn’t just doing his job. His job, is to offer comfort, guidance and support to people. Condemnation of anyone or passing judgment on anyone, is definitely not in the job description.

    Nobody stopped him from saying it, the media even tried to encourage him to say it, and because the law is objective, nobody has to concern themselves with what you do or don’t find offensive. Being offensive isn’t prohibited by the proposed legislation, nor was it ever prohibited by current legislation.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Of course incitement to hatred doesn't require anyone acting on it. FFS.

    You keep showing your complete ignorance of the law 🙄

    you can bring a horse to water........



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    no it won't. It is not designed to stifle free speech, just speech that incites violence or hatred.

    read Section 11 of the proposed legislation



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    I that scenario if you refuse to talk to the guards when they call to your house you will be arrested in full view of all your neighbours and have the groups on FB talking about you.



Advertisement
Advertisement