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Exempted Development - Second Garage/Shed

maw

Hi folks, I have a garage that is 60m2 and received full planning permission in 2012 by previous owners.

I would like to construct another shed behind it. Reading the planning leaflet on exemptions it states the following:

"the total area of the structure, taken on its own or in conjunction with any similar structures does not exceed 25 square metres;"

Should I interpret "similar structures" as the existing garage or should I ONLY consider similar EXEMPTED structures?

I.e. do I have a 25m2 exemption in the bank or is that gone due to the existing garage?

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FJMC

My understanding is that you can build a further 25m under exempted development if the current garage had planning permission with the original house - and any planning conditions attached to that permission did not remove or restrict exempted development.

A few others things to comply with in terms of curtilage size, shed location, heights, etc. - so always worth having a chat with your council before you proceed.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309342/exempted-development-second-garage-shed

You dont have any "exempted allowance" now as you already have a garage.

DOCARCH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979507#Comment_120979507

+1. Planning permission required for any further garages/sheds.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309342/exempted-development-second-garage-shed

what youve quote in your posts isn't exactly what the exempt regulations say.

the proper quote is:

2. The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.

so you can see where the "previously constructed" part means that, regardless of previous planning permission, any shed which equates to a cumulative area greater than 25 sq m is not exempt.

maw

Thanks all for the feedback - conflicting answers shows the lack of clarity clearly.

When the leaflet talks about a house extension is says this:

"....the original floor area of the house is not increased by more than 40 square metres. It is important to note that where the house has been previously extended, the floor area of the extension you are now proposing and the floor area of any previous extension constructed after 1st October 1964, including any extension for which you got planning permission, cannot exceed 40 square metre...."

It is very specifically calling out that for the purpose of extensions you need to include previous extensions that were granted PP. They don't use this language in the same way for garages so I was wondering why, and wether it was intentional.

either way - I've booked a pre-planning session to get an clear answer from the horses mouth

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120983718#Comment_120983718

So you have had 3 out of 4 people telling you the same thing so no real conflicting opinions.

Class 3 of the exemptions is quite clear.

FJMC

I can understand any planning permission for a garage, shed, etc. using up the 25m allowance if it is applied after the original planning permission and construction of the dwelling - but I would interpret it as a detached garage constructed at the same time as the dwelling under an original planning for 'dwelling and garage' as not extinguishing that 25m?

Could only find a few vague references to support this and nothing particularly definitive or authorative?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979301#Comment_120979301

That’s incorrect. Previous structures are counted. Including previous structures on original PPs.

Often sheds are not even on PP for housing developments. The builder then just adds that, which is the same as had they been on the PP plans.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120983718#Comment_120983718

If you remove the “including….got planning permission” line it doesn’t changed anything. Extensions with PP would still be counted by virtue of the fact they were still “constructed”.

They likely clarify for extensions as people are more likely to think extensions with PP are excluded from the “exempted extension limit”.

FJMC

Any source for this - I think the wording for exempted development is too vague to come to that conclusion?

Just wondered whether there has been a Section 5 or an ABP decision on it or any other authoritative source?

I wouldn't equate a garage with original planning permission along with the dwelling as being the same as the builder just adding a garage on with no planning permission.

If an original approved garage was counted it effectively means that most people in a new dwelling in the countryside then need permission for a garden shed - that would be a huge waste of planning resources.

muffler

Unfortunately some planning regulations can be down to personal interpretation and this case is no different in a way. The exemption limits for domestic extensions is fairly well covered where it is stated the 40m2 limit is inclusive of the area or any previous extension including any that benefited from planning permission.

In this instance the regs dont specifically state anything about the floor area of a shed/garage previously built with permission but they do clearly state "The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres" So the popular view is, while the wording is poor, the area of previously constructed sheds whether planning granted or not is taken into account when calculating the max exemption limit of 25m2.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120986656#Comment_120986656

I don't see what's vague about the wording? "Any other such structures previously constructed" is not ambiguous. It's how those words are applied.

I said shed in my example, you seem to be focused on Garage only. The actually description of Class 2 is "tent, awning, shade, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure". Taken collectively, I think its clear what such structures are. Sheds, greenhouses, etc. An attached Garage to the side is the anomaly.

I'd be of the view that a garage attached to a house as original (planning) constitutes a single house and not a "house and a Shed/Garage/Greenhouse". The exception to the rule, so to speak. But standalone annexes in the garden, and House with an [Annex], and thus count towards the 25.

FJMC

Just using 'garage' as it was referenced by the OP - and it is a more likely scenario that a dwelling may have planning permission to include a detached garage.

Appreciate that an attached integral garage is potentially a different thing.

I'd still like to see examples of these being interpreted in Section 5 declarations or ABP appeals - I've done a bit of a search but nothing found so far.

In my mind, interpreting a detached garage, constructed with benefit of planning permission with the original dwelling, as part of the 25m, is akin to deciding that a 2-storey house with a single storey outrigger design already has an 'extension' and the outrigger is taken as part of the 40m for extensions.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990099#Comment_120990099

Not quite, as an "extension" by definition has to be added to something that already exists.

This particular quirk comes up when some people ask, "can I build the 40sq m extension exemption limits to my house at the time I build my house" and the answer is no you cannot, because an extension by definition has to added to something that exists.

In the example of a two storey with single story annex, the single storey cannot be considered an "extension" as it's constructed at the same time as the rest of the original build, in accordance with the first planning condition

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990099#Comment_120990099

OP's first question would suggest that the garage was not original and was a separate planning application.

I'd still like to see examples of these being interpreted in Section 5 declarations or ABP appeals - I've done a bit of a search but nothing found so far.

ABP appeals are for planning decisions. So unlikely that a refusal is appealed on the basis that it was exempt. Could be covered in a Sec5. But I didn't think they were published.

There's obvious reasons why that interpretation incorrect tough.

A detached garage/shed with the benefit of planning permission is still a garage/shed. So the rules regarding sheds apply.

An original single story section of a two story house is not, and never was, an extension. So the rules regarding extensions do not apply.

FJMC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993660#Comment_120993660

Yes - appreciate that - although not 100% clear when I first read it - and, regardless, I still wanted to query the situation with a detached garage included under an original planning permission.

ABP do deal with appeals for Section 5 declarations but I couldn't find anything, admittedly on a limited search, that dealt with the situation described.

Some councils also publish some of their Section 5 declarations, but again, albeit another limited search, I didn't find anything relevant.

Appreciate situation with extensions - just drawing a parallel with it - it would be ludicrous to think that an original annex with benefit of original planning with the dwelling would count as an extension. However, I think that should equally apply to a detached garage with original planning permission. I think the wording employed in the planning acts for exempted development has arisen more by accident rather than by design and leaves too many grey areas.

I'd still be intrigued to find a similar situation dealt with by ABP or by one of the councils - I'll post if something relevant comes to light.

sydthebeat

heres something that i found on it, but again, like everything is an "opinion" thats offered.

but it does tally with the general consensus here

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/i-want-to-build-another-shed-in-my-garden-do-i-need-planning-permission-1.4782284

In your case you already have developed a shed that exceeded the maximum permitted exempted development and have regularised the situation by applying for retention of the structure. The regulations, although they are a little confusing, do state that in order to be exempt, the floor area of the shed structure, taken on its own or in conjunction with any similar structures must not exceed 25sq m. This means that the shed you have applied to retain has already used the full floor area permitted as exempt development. Any additional sheds garages or stores will, in my opinion, require planning permission.

sydthebeat

alternatively here is something that give steh opposite opinion:

https://www.gardenrooms.ie/planning-permission/

If, however, you have a garage or shed that was included in the original planning permission granted when your house was built, you will still be entitled to the exemption of the 25 square metre for your new Garden Room.

sydthebeat

important to note who is giving the opinions in each case