The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.
The energia fixed plan was only available for people with day night meters, which I think only account for around 10% of domestic consumers, great for those who got it but made extremely difficult to get by suppliers refusing point blank to submit a request to esbn for their customers. Italy and the Netherlands have been dropping their rates since January. I can't see how BG lost money anyway, my rate rose from 16.5c to an eyewatering 39.5c retention rate, their full rate was in the mid 40's and it's still there along with measly discount. How can Flogas give a 30c rate or if you're one of the lucky 10% and get 33/15c?
Talk to these lads if you want to find out more about how energy markets work, they have the credentials and they do a good podcast
In terms of why other countries have lowered energy prices, no-one here is going to be able to give you a definitive answer but here a few of my guesses on a case by case basis
UK - has not actually lowered any energy prices, they still have the price cap to limit exposure from consumers. This is a double edged sword because they're just paying the excess through tax revenues and increased government borrowing. We buy most of our gas from the UK so we need to pay the cost of their high energy prices too
France - in summertime France has a significant amount of power from nuclear, so much they need to export a lot to Germany to keep their grid in balance. Also given the nature of the French public to protest anything and the fact that EDF is now owned by the French government, they're probably trying to push energy costs down to keep people happy (or at least at a manageable level of unhappy). Also France massively subsidises their Nuclear industry, so again consumers just pay the cost through taxation
Germany - currently getting lots of cheap electricity from France. Also they're in a recession with lower factory output meaning they've lower energy demand. They are however economically dependant on cheap gas from Russia so they're paying the price for that now. However they're in luck because they still have a lot of gas storage saved up from last year
Ireland - the "plan" as it is seems to be to keep the market system going and just bail out the consumer with credits whenever the prices go too high. Suppliers are reluctant to lower prices because they all lost money last year which needs to be recovered (whether we like it or not) and they don't want to hand out large discounts in case they get burned again
On top of that, there's a lot less competition in the marketplace, plus there's talk of more energy supports coming so they're not going to discount themselves out of free money
EDIT: Also we did have fixed rates, that's literally what the Energia EV plan was, and that's why anyone on it has been laughing the past year
But we as consumers never had fixed unit rates, we had high discount deals subject to price increases which we got in spades, I had 4 increases in 9 months while with BG. I've had electricity in my name since 1988 and this is the first time I've gotten the security of a fixed price deal. The whole thing stinks to high heaven to me tbh. Why are other countries dropping their prices since January while our are static? Nobody is answering that question.
True, we might actually be paying the average unit price between two or more long-hedges, one high and one lower.
Not if you want to provide certainty to your consumers. At it's core hedging is a gamble, a supplier is making a bet that the average wholesale price over the period is going to be on average the agreed the price. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. If prices are increasing and you think they'll increase more in 6 months then it makes sense to lock in a longer term. It's no different than a person taking out a 5 year fixed rate mortgage.
If your theory is correct then the suppliers locked in a 12 month price with producers last year but had 4-6 month price lock-ins before then... Which is a bit odd, when prices are increasing you'd surely lock in for less time, not more.
Neither you or I know exactly know how many times a given supplier went to market to buy tranches of supply. The price charged to the consumer will be levelized based on the average cost of the hedged purchases.
In the case of a charge point operator like eCars (the consumer in this case) they're stuck paying that price to the supplier and then have to add their own markup to cover network costs and fund expansion. I'd guess that eCars are making between 12c and 15c per kWh over their wholesale price and were doing the same last year.
They don't buy from suppliers they buy from generators.
Ok so back to my original question, if the hedging period is 12 months why were there 3 increases last year? Surely there would only be one in this scenario
I think the theory is that the suppliers hedge their prices, not the producers... So waterpower are effectively only hedging for one month at a time in their deal with the producers in this instance, hence why the price changes on a monthly basis
Because they aren't hedging, they're giving the spot price and passing the risk onto the customer
The majority of customers want a fixed price for electricity, they don't want to wondering whether their electricity rate is going to double in a month. That requires the supplier to lock in a price for their energy supplies for several months ahead
I like the idea of agile tariffs but I'll be the first to admit they aren't for everyone
How is a new entrant like waterpower working? Surely they're buying their electricity from a provider who's hands are tied because of this hedging, yet wp can give a month by month rate according to market forces.
We don't know the hedging period, I'm guessing at 12 months based on the prices not coming down since last November. It's likely to be a set of overlapping contracts. There was an article that I can't find that discussed how UK prices were based on shorter 12-15 week purchases versus longer contracts in Ireland.
It's largely a question of balance, shorter more volatile contracts mean the customer isn't shielded from big swings whereas longer contracts can mean the supplier is stuck paying generators higher prices for longer. The whole system needs major reform as last years gas crises has exposed flaws. The regulations were designed to stabilise the relationship between the generators, suppliers, and consumers to allow for a liberalised market.
The sooner we can roll out fully indigenous sources of electricity generation the better. There's lot's of cheap energy available to us (on-shore wind, solar etc...) but people have been convinced to turn cheap sources of electricity into a left/right political issue.
Exactly, strange that other countries in Europe have been dropping their prices steadily, they must use a different hedge... Everybody knows this hedging excuse is a load of bollox.
I suppose the main reason I am skeptical is that despite allegedly hedging for 12 months prices rose last year 3 times with most suppliers... Something which nobody seems capable of explaining despite so many experts on here. But yes I am also annoyed at high prices
When suppliers are telling press that they buy in blocks and it's being reported as such I have no reason to disbelieve them. Do you have any reasons to do so, or is just based on the fact you are annoyed prices are so high? Can you show any evidence that suppliers retail arms are making large profits this year?
The way our market works is quite simple, we pay whatever the private companies want and when we complain about pricing they make up stuff and people lap it up. Have you ever wondered why did prices rose every 4-6 months last year despite the suppliers allegedly hedging for 12?
Or they can keep the same consumer price and gain 20c profit. Where's the incentive not to?
Their profits will remain the same. No need to cut them if the price they are paying drops , say they make 10c/kwh
at the moment it costs 55c , if next month it costs 35c, they can drop by 20c and maintain the same profit.
but to be honest the revenue from eCars isn’t much to ESB so they aren’t to worried about a cut.
Hedging and forward purchase contracts are a standard part of the electricity market, just like there is separation between generation and supply companies. Just because you don't understand the electricity market doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
One thing the last 12 months has really shown is that the common person has no clue how complex regulated markets work.
And cut their profits? No chance!
Yeah I hear all the excuses too but it doesn't really add up that every single provider in the country made a wrong call on hedging at the exact same time, if indeed hedging is even a thing...
I think in a few years it will be exposed in a similar manner to the the Esat Digifone controversy, the tracker mortgage scandal or the Ryan Tubridy debacle, by which point it will be too late sadly
I can only go on what's being reported, news articles are saying that supply companies have hedged badly and so we're stuck with high retail prices compared to the wholesale prices. I'm sure they'll be some interesting studies written on the '22/'23 electricity market failure. I'm expecting rates to start dropping across the domestic market late Autumn, I don't think it's blatant profiteering by retail arms as this would quickly be exposed when company results are published.
I can't see a situation where eCars prices for consumers are reduced before Electric Ireland's prices for retail are reduced. It's all likely part of the same forward purchase.
They’ll cut it when they don’t make a loss by doing so.
Last year their prices went up twice (or was it 3 times?) in the space of 12 months, which would suggest 6 months hedging at best. Household suppliers raised prices 3 times on average last year and have yet to drop prices this year so they're unlikely to be in 12 month hedges either and simply benefiting from higher profits at our expense
They're still under same forward purchasing contract, they won't cut the prices they charge customers until they cut the costs they're paying their supplier. I wouldn't be surprised if the costs drop in November and it turns they've been hedging for 12 months at a time.
Yeah they'll cut their prices when it suits them to do so. Don't expect it anytime soon
…Byrne defends Ireland’s position when it comes to the charging rollout, saying: “It’s actually an aggressive rollout, but these things take time. We’ve built 29 new locations with high-speed charging under the Climate Action Fund, and we’re going to build 27 more. The good news is that the majority of those, 16 of them, will be high-powered charging hubs, like the one at Barack Obama Plaza. It takes time to ramp up to this sort of level of capability.”
Does anyone know where are the next 27 will be located ?
Good article here in the Irish Times. Touches on a few items from recent posts in this forum, e.g. neighbourhood solutions, building out the network, high speed hubs, etc.
Its paywalled but this is what head of eCars John Byrne says about pricing. Seems pricing might fall 'in the autumn'
https://www.irishtimes.com/motors/2023/08/16/ev-charging-prices-to-fall-in-near-future-says-esb/
John Byrne, head of e-cars at ESB, told The Irish Times that: “We purchase our electricity in blocks, so as the wholesale price has come down, and as we roll over our contracts and buy our next blocks of energy, then we hope to avail of those lower wholesale costs and pass those savings on to consumers. We always try to keep a good delta of pricing between us and petrol and diesel, because we know that cost helps to drive more people into electric motoring. The price of petrol and diesel has remained fairly constant, so the price of electricity will have to drop, and I’m hopeful that we’re going to be able to pass on those reductions in the near future.”
Part of the problem I believe is the cable between each charger on a street needs to be installed by esb networks. They could put one meter at the start of the street but they would also need to wire all the street at high cost to the provider. Basically it looks like esb networks has a monopoly on cabling on public streets. They probably contract out the actual work, but they are the only ones allowed. Delays and costs could be crazy. In terms of AC costs, the units are cheaper but the upkeep and support and standing charges versus the actual income may not make sense in all but the busiest sites. Easygo have a lot of on street AC chargers in Ennis, but no where else.
Yeah fair enough, the charging is costly enough without having more expense to pass on to consumers
Additional standing charges. Additional installation costs, lose out on bulk discounts, etc
the unit themselves will record usage. And work with the operators billing system
