nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Advice on off grid solar, desperately needed.

Not-A-Clue

Hello

I've been trawling through many of the posts in this energy section to get an idea of what I will need, but I am to be perfectly honest, so out of my depths having no idea about the very basics, i.e. Electricity itself!

I have spoken to many suppliers of Solar and Wind and they all tell me that they are the best and not to listen to A,B,C etc. Only once did I speak with a supplier/installer who told me that they couldn't help me go off grid as it wasn't in their interests to do so. When I asked why, He said they were paid commision to keep people on the Grid!

So I've had to look for suppliers who will accomodate/sell off grid systems, but what is supplied is not complete and there are other things needed, which is a brain scramble for me! particulary so since everyone seems to have different preferences. Also there is not a cat in hells chance i would be able to wire a system myself.

I am hoping you will be able to point me in the direction of someone who could fit, wire, advise on size/quantity solar and battery requirements, in the Mayo/Roscommon area.

I purchased a cottage which had been disconected from the Grid, cost to reconnect ~€3000 + to dig a tract for under ground cabling to the cottage ~€1000. It clearly is a no brainer to me to use this money for solar panels. I had seen that it is adviseable to purchase a small wind turbine for the winter months, when solar is not enough to keep the batteries topped up. Thanks to a thread on here, I have now become aware that Ista Breeze windturbines are more reliable than others. I've also (hopefully) got to the point where gel batteries are needed for solar and wind and not the other ones. I will need ground mounted solar, there being no obstacles to ESE all the way to WSW facing for them.

I read the sticky which says start with the electric you use on a daily basis. but my usage in the summer will differ from my usage in the winter quite a bit. i.e. hot water, cooking and heating will be by a reconditioned Stanley. Whereas summer will be in the main electric hob, immersion, kettle.

And this is the point i become terrified! clearly i need power in the winter, but if i produce too much in the summer? What am I to do with all the excess output from the panels? I have read that gel batteries hold their charge for months, do i charge in the summer ready for the winter?

Whilst I am sorry to be so pathetically dumb on this matter, my brain is litterally scrambled, because there is just so much conflicting advice out there. Coupled with the fact that I myself have zero knowledge about any of it, which is the biggest problem if I'm honest.

I'd be grateful for any help you could offer. Thank you in advance.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

slave1

...if it was not for our two EVs we would be effectively off grid for 8 months of the year and I'd be looking at a generator, however with ~1MW of EV charging a month that's an out and out no-no for me

slave1

Off grid you will always need a generator, I can be as low as 2-3kWh a day in Winter with 12kW of inverters so that would be ~1kWh off a 5kW system, the extra cost of a larger inverter is pittance....but generator needed!

Not-A-Clue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874052#Comment_120874052

Thank you Bullit for your reply, sorry my response is late.

As I understand it (from many, many sites) I dont need sun to generate electricity only day light, allbeit generation potential drops significantly in the winter. (this is my understanding, it may be wrong) if this is the case then trickling amounts of generation still top up the batteries?

re the generator. My builders have one which has been battered, dropped and is as rusty as can be, yet it still works, I doubt it is serviced regularly yet it works. Clearly a generator kept in a shed not to be moved would sustain quite a bit less battering and possibly last for many years. I could be wrong. But having been informed a generator could top up the batteries, it seems it would be a more reliable substitue for a windturbine. (I'm gathering good information and help from this site and am grateful).

I do not use much electricity, and whilst I will cook on electric in the summer, I will also be eating a lot of salads. This was one of my original concerns, as I worried that the solar panels could cause the electricity to build up, this fear has been explained and I am now confident in knowing it was an irrational fear.

I mentioned in a previous reply my anti mains connection, you have touched on another reason why I'm against connecting, namely the Feed-in-Tariff. Since the electric board are using the excess energy everyone is producing, which saves them their own generation costs. Why are they paying you so little for it, yet charging you so much more to buy back?

Being on the road a while, you start to notice things which make you realise we are being well and truly Had! in my humble opinion. Thank you for your reply.

DC999

You said somewhere you might have as low as 2kWh usage a day. I really wonder could you get it thay low.

To give you a sense, our house uses 1.5kWh a day while we are on hols and not there. That is fridge and freezer and house alarm (which I guess is maybe 10s of watts at most). Everything else is off.

Or we use 7.5kWh a day on average excluding cooking (have a gas cooker still). That's lowish for a family of 4. We only turn on stuff when needed..

Even a 30watt broadband modem uses 0.7kWh over 24 hours. Of course you can power it on only when needed.

Heating uses the most electricity (for cooking, showers and hot water, heating air for heating).

If you genuinely will only need 2kWh a day (which I'd question and you'll need to confirm to yourself), a 40kWh DIY battery (which others here have made) plus solar will cover you. Battery covers the cloudy days with low solar production. If more people move in, you need to know how to make and store more.

DC999

I salute your question 'How much do I really need to earn to live comfortably?' - we need more people to think that way!!

Could I suggest an alternative unless you want electricity generation to take a lot of money and time? I am sure electricity supply is just one small part of the overall life you want. Get the grid for now and suck up the cost of part of modernising the house. I know that really isn't ideal. But... plan to turn it off in X years. Then you won't have the standing charge forever more. That's something most won't be able to achieve. And you can then learn how to do that between now and then.

If you're bothered, YouTube it and might pay a few quid back towards the cost. An Irish story of how to get off grid could be of interest. There are many US versions. Some UK like Kris Harbour. Little Irish ones I know off.

10-10-20

@Not-A-Clue perhaps tell us about the site, it's layout and your nearest neighbour(s) etc? Mayo differs from field to field, but any insight into what's available would help us understand the challenges.

Photos, distances to trees or buildings, cardinal directions, streams, aspects... feed it all into this machine and see the debate kick-off.

Not-A-Clue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871709#Comment_120871709

thank you for your comment, sorry for the late reply.

I have cut back on my electric considerably. So much So that I dont believe I actually use as much as 2Kw a day, possibly less. It was why I had a fear that there would be so much build up of electricity. This has now been explained to me and renders any fear null and void.

I had thought that if I were to get a 5Kw system, being that my electric usage was low, during the times of little generation, there might be sufficient in the battery to tide me over until the sun came out. That it is possible to connect a generator, which I hadn't realised before, also quashes the fear of running out of electricity.

I am grateful for your response, I am garnering a lot of information from this site.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878833#Comment_120878833

Ok, well we made a step forward. I admire your principled decision-making on this one. I know we all want it to succeed; opinions will differ strongly on the how, where and when; but at the end of the day - you're the best placed person to make the calls here as you know your needs. Looking forward to hearing more. 👍️

Not-A-Clue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872844#Comment_120872844

Thank you for you reply, sorry for my late response.

I have read several of the posts made by Quentin Gargan also looked up Solartricity and was reassured by the honesty of why he had stopped making wind turbines and instead focused on Solar. It came as a suprise that wind turbines would need annual maintenance unlike solar. But having read it, it made a lot of sense. Thank you for explaining the difference between wind and solar generation and excess energy.

Not-A-Clue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872684#Comment_120872684

Sorry for the late response.

I understand exactly where you are coming from, it is good advice!

Having been on the road for several months, with no fixed abode, you get a chance to mull over quite a lot of things. One of those things is 'How much do I really need to earn to live comfortably?'. The next thing is 'What is costing me all the money at the moment?'. Having sold up, I suddenly lost the out lay for Gas, electric, water, insurance, etc.etc. A huge chunk of money I was having to work for in order to pay the bills.

The €4000 is not so much a 'sting' as a principal now. For it is possible to live off grid, allbeit with a lump sum up front, free from quarterly bills. Yup the batteries will need replacing, yup the panels may need upgrading, but it is ultimately cheaper than reconnecting back to the grid. I read (rightly or wrongly) that it would be permitted for the electric companies to put up the standing charge to €500 per year. In the next 40 years that would cost me €20,000. From my way of thinking, that will be sufficient to replace the batteries and the solar.

I agree with you that it is easier to reconnect, but for the sake of reducing the convenience, I am able to keep my principals. Rightly or wrongly.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876036#Comment_120876036

Victron are generally vastly overpriced for their specs and quality. Sure their products work well together, they have a nice app and everyone seems to like them. Maybe I'm pissing people off now but they are more suitable for rich campervan owners where looks count and budget isn't that important

If I had the budget for one, I'd buy an inverter that's actually properly well built and suitable for every day heavy duty off grid use. Like SMA Sunny Boy

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876163#Comment_120876163

Tesla power wall battery is grid connect only. And extremely expensive for what it is. Maybe that's why nobody in here except you has mentioned it ;-)

cnocbui

OP needs to connect to the grid. That €4,000 grid connect charge is an absolute bargain at a fraction of the cost of a single Tesla power wall battery, and he'd need multiple of those plus a minimum of 12 KW of panels costing €12,000.

unkel

@10-10-20 - "Mayo's not known for endless sunny days, it's properly overcast for most of Winter not like the day-long cold Winter-sun which we often get here in Dublin. I'd almost double that storage and stick wind generation on it."

Sure but then we're closer to a €20k budget and a lot more and much more complicated maintenance. Personally If I had a €50k budget, I'd commit to no more burning stuff. No genny, no solid fuel. For a comfortable family friendly 100% green setup, you'd spend at least €200k. Where do you stop?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875775#Comment_120875775

Mayo's not known for endless sunny days, it's properly overcast for most of Winter not like the day-long cold Winter-sun which we often get here in Dublin. I'd almost double that storage and stick wind generation on it.

Back to Victron - and yes I know that some people don't agree with me when I say this - but their equipment has been very well engineered for off-grid use and their documentation is just top-notch. Plus, they have genset inputs on many of their solar products, so the integration of a genny is simple as hell. (P64: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/The_Wiring_Unlimited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf) Anyway, each to their own.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875921#Comment_120875921

No doubt a decent crowd but they are the middle man making a profit. If you want a setup like I mentioned for €10k, you would need to find parts for about half those prices. And not use a ground mount install either unless you can make one for free with materials you already have like trees and scrap metal. And do all the work yourself either way.

Buffman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058305713/advice-on-off-grid-solar-desperately-needed

Hi, sounds like this is the type of setup you're after and it would definitely be worth a call to him. (I've dealt with Art in the past and would have no issues in doing so again. I'm not affiliated in any way with this business other than being a satisfied customer).

https://www.donedeal.ie/tools-for-sale/8kw-off-grid-solar-diy-kit/34514014

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875666#Comment_120875666

Hugely depends on your needs. And at what prices you buy and presuming you do all the installs DIY. If it was me living on my own, buying at the sort of prices I'd like to pay, I'd spend less than €10k. And I wouldn't buy overpriced gear like Victron. A single set of 16 320Ah EVE cells (14kWh), as many PV panels as would fit. Basic MPPT solar charge controller, 3-5kW pure sine (budget) inverter, 3kW genny, solid fuel heating just the living room, a few far infrared panels for other rooms to be used when needed. Cheap electric immersion DHW. Pretty spartan setup.

A setup for a family more like @graememk suggested would be well north of €20k

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874418#Comment_120874418

What would your devils advocate system likely cost?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874418#Comment_120874418

If I were single, I would go that way exactly. Same as yourself. Out of principle, for the challenge, for being as green as possible, etc. (not so much to save money). But we are already well versed in this area and it would be a huge steep learning curve for the OP, who doesn't say if there's a family involved, which changes things too

Of course doable, but not sure if the OP is interested in going up this path. And there would be no way back if things go south, unless they are willing to sell the hardware at a substantial loss and get the grid connected anyway.

10-10-20

If you were to go tiltable and you had the aspect and sky-view in all directions (and the sky was the limit, pardon the pun...), I'd go for a split E / S / W array.

Plus, there is a guy called Tim in Mayo on YouTube who does a frequent updates on his constructions and he'd be one who I'd approach for help with constructing a tilting array.

https://www.youtube.com/%40wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299/videos

the_amazing_raisin

Okay, first off in the long run it's probably going to be cheaper to go on grid

Generally speaking going off grid only makes huge sense in places like the outback of Australia where the sun literally always shines and you could be 150km from the nearest electricity pole

However, it has been done in Ireland and it is possible

It does require a very different design process to a typical grid tied system. In a grid tied system you always have the power grid available to handle any peak power needs that are beyond your inverter power

An off grid system has to be designed with enough capacity to handle everything being switched on at once

You'll probably also end up needing a small generator for any times that you have a couple of full and calm days. They do happen and you might still need power

I would look up a company called Victron Energy. They design inverters and chargers for off grid systems. I wouldn't say you have to use their hardware, but they do have a massive knowledge base available and plenty of people around Europe who have done the same thing

I'd also start talking to companies that do electrics for boats and campervans. They'll have a lot more experience with off grid and your cottage is basically just a static version of one of those

As for batteries, you can't realistically store enough charge in summer to last through winter. You'll need another solution to manage your energy needs in winter, could be a turbine, more panels, a generator, reducing usage or all of the above

I also wouldn't bother looking at lead batteries. They're cheap by kWh but once you dig into the details you'll quickly realise Lithium is way better

For example most lead batteries will only last if discharged by less than 50% of total capacity, whereas Lithium can usually handle 80-90%

So to provide 10kWh of power per day, you'll need 12.5kWh of Lithium or 20kWh of Lead

The amount of power you can get out of lead acid is generally lower as well. They prefer slow discharges as opposed to short rapid bursts, whereas Lithium can generally handle being discharged at it's capacity or even higher

Long story short, you've a lot of research to do and you need to do your sums carefully

On the one hand you've got the certainty of going on grid and knowing it's there, and then you can get a cheaper grid tied PV system and cut down your energy costs

On the flip side, going off grid saves you the electricity bills and connection costs, as well as the heaps of restrictions over what you can and cannot do. You will likely have much higher upfront costs, and you may end up spending more on some other fuel sources as well (gas or oil perhaps)

slave1

Being devils advocate here, I would not go on grid, I'd get a tiltable ground mount that can do surprisingly well in Winter on a clear day dead South facing.

I would not go for wind (eliminates over generation issue) , I would go for CALB or prismatic batteries from NKON and to "replace" the Grid I would invest in a good generator.

Apart from paying the Grid connection you will have monthly standing charges and even though you estimate €4k, that could be a moving number.

Being off grid means you can also put in a larger inverter as the ESB charge MINIMUM €1k for a ~>5.5kW inverter which costs very little extra and is a good boost to your maximum output.

Good luck with your endeavour, I'd love it but SWMBO is a no no

bullit_dodger

It's an interesting problem Not-A-Clue, and your not the first person to come here and ask about an off-grid solution.

Solar panels are indeed an integral part of your potential solution. The problem with solar is that from March -> October, you can install a sufficient number of panels (lets say ~10Kwp) which will cover your needs for all but the darkest of days. You could supplement that with one or more Wind turbines, those Ista Breeze jobbies you mentioned - and you'd have virtually covered your power/hot water for 8 months of the year. (not heating though) You'd top up the batteries and then use the batteries for your needs. Bear in mind that while batteries are excellent, they struggle to power lots of high power devices at the same time. The oven fine! The kettle fine. The immersion heating fine. Two or more at the same time? No - can't deliver out the current. (There are ways around this with connecting batteries in parallel but I want to keep this light/non-technical)

The problem is winter. The bulk (80%) of your power above will be coming from the panels with the other 20% from wind. In winter, the days are short but more importantly, they are dark overcast days generally where the sun is low on the horizon at noon. This means that unless you have some kind of adjustable mount for the panels where you can change the "tilt/angle" of the panels, otherwise the sun isn't facing directly onto them....and they will generate less power. Even a heavily optimised 2-axis tracking set of panels will struggle to generate what an average house needs. Adding more panels helps, but it's a false economy. You have to have about 40-50Kwp in panels (€30K+) to cover your needs. It's not workable.

A generator would indeed cover the shortfall in winter - but now your adding another device which requires maintenance, petrol/diesel, could be noisy, and just generally could be a pain in the botty to have to run.

Overall, I'd weigh in behind what the lads (gramemk, etc) have mentioned. The idea of off-grid is excellent. A once off payment to get the kit and your done for life, right? It's just not workable in Ireland sadly, we're too far north of the equator in Winter. Dublin = 53deg North. If we were 40 degrees, somewhere like spain the physics would work better. Wind is good, but you need a sizable/significant investment there to be worthwhile. Ista breeze are good, but too small.

I'd pay the €3k grid connection. Look at it as an investment and get panels anyway. Panels would export and youd get paid for Feed-In-Tariff - only possible with a grid connection. Panels would pay for themselves in 6-7 years (depending on the price/size of the array of course)

10-10-20

Two points to make around over-generation which has already been touched on:

PV solar systems effectively stop pushing electrons down the wire when there is no demand - it's very handy and means that you can off-line panels as needed.
Wind generators do not operate in the same fashion, unless they have been folded away from the wind or mechanically blocked, they continue to push electrons down the wire need a dummy load to dissipate the excess energy into.

Quentin Gargan of Solartricity and previously of this parish (you can search for his very excellent posts), used to do wind systems and wind controllers and may have posted some advice on the topic of off-grid living in the past (search for Irish Times article on him).

Victron are a good supplier of off-grid inverters, that's where they started, and I think I saw high level diagrams of off-grid systems for combined wind and solar on their site recently, have a search.

Big Lar

Whatever you use be it generators, Stanley, solar or wind you will never beat the reliability and ease of use of a grid connection.

The €4k costs that are stinging you at the moment will be spread over your lifetime and if you live another 40yrs well that's only €100 a year.

Not-A-Clue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871947#Comment_120871947

Hi Graeme

Thank you for your reply. Re the reconection I answered on the previous answer.

Now a generator! Well I never thought of that and that would clearly enable recharging of batteries. I genuinely like this idea! Although I'm trying to take on board all advice.

I am aware there will be a rather large initial cost to do this, I have heard of Victron but another supplier told me steer clear of them. I'm glad for your recommendation there, I had seen a lot of posts also using Victron. To be honest charge controllers, inverters etc. is like a foreign language to me, so much so it frightenes me as I do not understand it. When I said I didn't know, I really meant it. Hence to look for someone who would know how it all worked and how to instal.

Thank you for explaining over generation, that was a REALLY big worry, you have made it sound and explained that so simply, that even I understand that totally.

The stanley will heat up to 8 Rads, it is solid fuel. My cottage is only 2 beds, and requires 5 rads only.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

Not-A-Clue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871709#Comment_120871709

Thank you for your reply, there is a lot of sense in what you are saying, i know. BUT! I'm having a hard time accepting that I have to pay to connect the electric, when the pole is exactly where it was before disconnection and then having to pay quarterly for the electricity to be provided for years to come..

The off grid appealled to me quite simply because I wouldnt have all the bills. Added to that once I achieved a stable supply, I then wouldnt be charged a fortune for the Electric board to disconnect me.

but i will take on board your advice and thank you.

graememk

First off.. Nobodys getting commission to keep people on grid.

Roughly, id say about 15K for a decent off grid setup. Thats batteries, Charge controllers, Inverters, Panels and a good generator. And that id say mostly DIY too.

Getting through the winter is the difficult bit, and really all depends on how much you want to run a generator (you'd want one with a good stable output and auto start etc)

So TLDR, take the grid connection on the chin and suck it up.

A quick rundown of how I'd connect things up, I'd likely would use Victron stuff as that is designed around off grid setups

Solar panels into charge controller(s) which charge batteries, Inverter connected to Batteries, Load, and Generator (so it can be started when batteries get low)

As for overgeneration in the summer, For solar, when power isnt being used either via a load or charging batteries the power is just not generated, It will sit there ready to generated as needed.

Reconditioned Stanley, Is that an oil fired one? Doing HW, Cooking and Heating?, From experience of neighbours, It can do 1 well, but trying to get it to do all everything you're not going to have a good time. If heating HW and CH, Its not hot enough to cook with.

would be better off, just using it to cook and getting a Oil boiler in for CH and DHW.

jkforde

honestly, get the grid connected... then you're stable in terms of energy supply..

then, start looking at minimising usage,

then look into solar (forget wind etc for now, solar is by far the cheapest and least maintenance) from which you are now eligible for surplus export payments which offset winter bills. if you are not technical, keep it simple and learn as you go small steps.