30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851232#Comment_120851232

But if you were concerned about people's time and fuel, you would be encouraging people to choose alternatives to driving into cities in the mornings and evenings rather than have wasteful congestion. Again, when you look at your excuses, your unwillingness to have speed limits reduced is nothing but "I don't want to have to drive slowly!"

Plus, where are you pulling the 2.8 million people from? Is this the number that routinely drive within the DCC area as I'd like to see the source of that figure?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851481#Comment_120851481

Except the results in Castlemartyr weren't different. In trying to prove its not representative, your example strongly suggests it is.

The counter argument that a eejit, flipping a car, didn't kill or injure anyone, means there isn't a safety issue is suspect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851480#Comment_120851480

But the statistics don't say that only one in 700 drivers that day was speeding. They say that one in 700 drivers that day was speeding as they passed a checkpoint. There's a significant difference.

If you don't believe those stats, I have to ask if you're equally suspicious of Ciarán Cannon's statistics? Or how exactly do you pick and choose which statistics you believe and which you don't?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851541#Comment_120851541

I strongly doubt that results of any speed survey in Castlemartyr would be exactly the same as the one in Craughwell. Therefore, they're different.

Also, nowhere did I say or even suggest that some breakneck speed idiot turning his car over isn't a safety issue. I merely pointed out the obvious that the manner in which he drove is not exactly typical of traffic there.

Anyway, I just got involved here to bring some context to the survey conducted in Craughwell, to show that it was at a point on a straight stretch of open road, far better than many other roads (and even many other stretches of the same road) where an 80km/h limit applies. Also to show it's exactly the sort of spot you'd pick if you wanted results to show a high proportion of drivers and an average speed over the limit.

And either way, still little or nothing to do with a debate over whether 30km/h limits in urban areas are justified, so I'm going back to just watching here instead of contributing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851958#Comment_120851958

You seem to be implying that just because X number of people passed a check point speeding, doesn't mean they were speeding elsewhere.

Thats funny.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851232#Comment_120851232

And what about the 5 million odd people in the country who walk for whom urban areas will be now a lot safer for? If you are going to play the numbers game measures that slow down cars in urban areas will always have significant upside as everyone is a pedestrian and not everyone has a drivers licence.

The biggest problem about the 30km/hr speed limit is that it won't be enforced. This means most people won't obey the speed limit as it won't be enforced/enforced once in a blue moon.

The other point is as been made numerous times is that moving the speed limit from 50km/hr to 30km/hr will have no real impact on average speed, time and fuel wastage because vehicles spend a lot of time stopped at traffic lights or behind other vehicles anyway.

The fuel wasting argument you have made gets worse. Speeding up to 50km/hr just to have to slam on the breaks seconds later is a great example of fuel/wastage. So much energy is wasted when braking, electric cars can recover this energy to recharge batteries. The less braking required the less energy wasted.

Tenzor07

For some people it's nothing to do with fuel efficiency, time taken, 2.8m people... it's a conspiracy to control us all apparently!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/climate-lockdowns-became-new-battleground-conspiracy-driven-protest-mo-rcna80370

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851480#Comment_120851480

Someone complaining about speed in 30kph zone isn't planning on parking in much.

SeanW

It all depends on where you do your survey. If you survey a town centre you are more likely to find people driving at a modest pace. If you do it in the countryside, like Ciaran Cannon did, then you might find people going a little faster.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851529#Comment_120851529

When last the RSA published statistics, there 2.8 million people with some kind of license or permit in Ireland. Of that, 2.5 million were Full Category B licenses. Nowadays you have to use the Wayback Machine unfortunately they've reorganised their website.

Wayback link to their Drivers Licenses section.

Wayback link to details of full licenses by county, including total number of full licenses in Ireland.

Wayback link to details of full licenses by type.

The odds of the average person in this group being involved in - let alone the cause of - a serious incident are infinitesimal. And that's a lot of people who will have to crawl everywhere if you wallpaper the country with 30kph speed limits, including main/arterial roads.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852017#Comment_120852017

What I was actually implying was the complete opposite - that just because somebody wasn't breaking the limit as they passed a checkpoint, doesn't mean that they didn't break it at some other point of their journey. Maybe only one out of 700 was over the limit as they passed a checkpoint, but who's to know how many of the other 699 didn't break it some other time?

But as it happens, what you point out is also valid. It's also possible for a driver to exceed the limit only once during their journey, be caught by a speed camera while doing so, and then return to a speed below the limit for the rest of their journey.

Thank you for helping me to make the point.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852757#Comment_120852757

When last the RSA published statistics, there 2.8 million people with some kind of license or permit in Ireland. Of that, 2.5 million were Full Category B licenses.

Ok so let's ignore the rest of the waffle and focus on this: how many of the 2.8m (let's stick with the figures you've been using to date) would frequently drive into an urban area that is likely to face a speed limit reduction to 30km/h?

For those people driving at 30km/h, what will the average journey time be before the speed limit change and what will it be afterwards? What percentage of the average trip will be within a new 30km/h zone?

Given your claims of 2.8million people being punished, etc. I presume that you have the details to back up your assertions!

SeanW

The title of the thread is "30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way" so ... nationwide. Affecting virtually all of the 2.8 million. And I'd expect it to add several minutes to a lot of journeys, especially off-peak journeys in places that are not Dublin City Centre.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852945#Comment_120852945

So you've actually no to back up your claims regarding people being punished, etc. You can't state what percentage will actually be inconvenienced/punished when compared to their current journeys.

Plus the proposal was for a default limit of 30km/h but one which can be increased if justified. Your posts appear to follow the presumption that no roads would change from this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852903#Comment_120852903

So when you said...

"...speeding as they passed a checkpoint... "

..you meant...

"...somebody wasn't breaking the limit as they passed a checkpoint..."

ok 🤣

https://twitter.com/ETSC_EU/status/1225011438936305664?t=EAV_0jzBkJkxkxjk2rj38Q&s=19

Interesting Twitter thread regarding the rollout of 30km/h

According to one response, traffic now flows better in Helsinki than in 2010 and traffic jams have subsided. Finland is also considering congestion charging (esp for Helsinki) and there is demand based parking charging.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852985#Comment_120852985

Not for the first time, you're attempting to twist my words in something I never said, intended, or suggested.

Good day.

You (and others) were trying to undermine speed surveys (and locations) as unrepresentative of drivers habits in general. It's not credible when theres a vast body of evidence that says otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120853649#Comment_120853649

As I strongly suspected, you've missed the entire point of my posts, which was simply to point out that if you want particular stats to suit a particular agenda, there are frequently ways to get them.

If you wanted stats to suggest that speeding is endemic through 60km/h zones in rural villages, those figures from Craughwell would suit you. You'd be hoping that people wouldn't look closer and realise the survey was actually conducted on a relatively wide and good quality stretch of straight road, approximately 1km from the actual village centre.

If you wanted stats to suggest that speeding isn't actually a problem at all, those figures from the National Slow Down Days would suit you. You'd be hoping it wouldn't occur to people that just because a driver wasn't speeding as they passed a checkpoint, doesn't mean they didn't speed at other points of their journey.

I am not undermining any set of figures. I am merely illustrating how the entire context in which they were gathered must be considered before drawing conclusions from them.

Again, good day.

You certainly aren't undermining any figures. That was an utter failure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120854323#Comment_120854323

Well, let's agree on something. :)

You're correct that I wasn't undermining any figures. I wasn't even attempting to do so.

On your second point - am not sure you can fail at something you don't even attempt to do. To paraphrase Fr. Jack Hackett, that would be a metaphysical matter.

You may now have the last word if you wish. You certainly seem determined to get it.

https://www.dekra-solutions.com/2021/03/rolling-into-the-future-at-30-kph/?lang=en#:~:text=The%2030%20kph%20speed%20limit%20saves%20lives&text=In%20Germany%2C%20Berlin%20shines%20as,to%20the%20Federal%20Environment%20Agency.

Its only going one way.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852984#Comment_120852984

Well, if you wallpaper the country with 30kph speed limits, common sense dictates "what percentage" will be considerable. As to why I regard "default" as being another word for "near universal" ... well we got a preview of what "30kph as default" might look like with Dublin City Council's "Love 30" consultation in which virtually all roads, including main arterial routes, were to be capped at 30kph with only a very small number of exceptions.

And it's rather obvious to me given the general sentiment towards people who drive on this forum, that this is what is desired. Nationwide.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120853649#Comment_120853649

Go back and read what Ciaran Cannon actually said: "cars entering a 60km/h zone" a.k.a. the countryside. If you're seriously trying to pretend it wasn't a tactical choice, you're just gaslighting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120854645#Comment_120854645

Well, if you wallpaper the country with 30kph speed limits, common sense dictates "what percentage" will be considerable.

No. The country won't be "wallpapered" because the suggestion is only for urban areas. You're guessing that it will be considerable - you're whole claim about inconvenience and fuel wastage is based on your guesses which to be fair aren't impartial.

As to why I regard "default" as being another word for "near universal" ... well we got a preview of what "30kph as default" might look like with Dublin City Council's "Love 30" consultation in which virtually all roads, including main arterial routes, were to be capped at 30kph with only a very small number of exceptions.

Again, your disdain for a lower speed limit is based on you not wanting to drive more slowly and not looking at the benefits to the population as a whole. You waffle on about the (alleged) inconvenience to 2.8m drivers but not once refer to the several clear benefits to over five million people.

You really need to look at life and the world as it actually exists all around you and not just through your windscreen!

patrickbrophy18

If it was part of a variable speed limit like that on the M50 (albeit, more limited), people mightn't be so quick to disagree. It should vary based on how built up it is for sure and not a 24 hour speer limit.

Let's just say it is the dead of night i.e. no one around, do you still think 30KM/H is appropriate?

I would imagine that the conditions should be a dictating factor as I doubt the driving populace would be okay with crawling along when no one is there to benefit from it.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120856439#Comment_120856439

Let's just say it is the dead of night i.e. no one around, do you still think 30KM/H is appropriate?

If there can be people driving then there can be people walking or cycling, so yes

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120856475#Comment_120856475

Agreed.

But, @patrickbrophy18 do you seriously think it's going to be enforced? There may be the odd camera which will be common community knowledge within five minutes due to tech comms we all have. The only time the offence will come in to effect is the Gardai use to as an excuse to stop someone they're familiar with or if there's a tragic accident & vehicular forensics are availed of.

Look at road traffic offences & enforcement now. There was a time when jumping red lights was an offence, now it's the done thing, a free for all and only becomes an offence when there's an accident. NOBODY gets punished for it until there's a bang and even then speeding, or light breaking isn't really taken in to consideration.

It's a "carry on as you did" until the **** hits the fan for you, me or the person we crash in to.

magicbastarder

maybe the thread title needs amending? i have not seen any suggestions that every single road will be 30km/h, which is what 'all' in the title would suggest.

what's recently been mooted in DCC is a change to the default speed limit. and the majority of roads within DCC are already nominally 30km/h anyway.

patrickbrophy18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120856475#Comment_120856475

Most of the time, the calibre of people walking or cycling at night are adults. It is hoped that at this point in their lives, they have their street smarts about them and are accustomed to observing the road around them. As such, 50KM/H shouldn't be an issue. Blanket 30KM/H speed limits come off as mollycoddling.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120857636#Comment_120857636

The level of street smarts held by someone cycling or walkking normally has absolutely no bearing on the behaviour of someone driving towards them (regardless of the prevaling speed limit). Some people drive like arseholes regardless of the person walking or cycling. What you are doing is saying that it is up to the vulnerable person to protect themselves from an arsehole driver. The onus should be on the driver to ensure the car is being driven in a safe manner and not on the vulnerable person to have enough wit to get out of the way of the unsafe driver.

As for mollycoddling, it's not. People drive into things at low speeds. We all know it happens. So, if driving at a slow speed shouldn't be an issue, how then does it happen?