You'd hope a large amount of taurus cruise missiles but probably the leopard 1s.
Losses pilling up for Russia.
Looks at my boards.ie join date.
Looks at your boards.ie join date.
Okay chief.
I have absolutely zero issue with Russian soldiers being blown to bits with cluster bombs. Therefore I don't see why I should be bemoaning them using cluster bombs. They're absolute fuckers and scum for doing so, but that's not the issue I'm bringing up at all.
I'm talking about post war legacy issues. Russia don't give a damn if Ukraine is a desolate war torn landscape once it's all done, as long as they win. So they'll use whatever.
Ukraine on the other hand need to think about the post war condition of their country as you know, they'll be the ones actually inhabiting it. Them potentially adding their own unexploded cluster bombs to an already war torn landscape is something which needs consideration.
Again, no issue with death from above, blow Russians into smithereens, it's the civilians being blown to bits years down the line that's something worth thinking about.
I think you'll see that poster Oisín has been around a deal longer than you or you in your current guise. They've also been active on this thread over several months iirc, with the same sort of equivocation when it comes to this war.
Wonder what's on offer.
It's a testiment to the quality and sheer grit of the AFU soldiers compared to their Russian foe.
The Russians had the advantage of scale, numbers, and huge border to move around without fear of attack. Early on they also had stronger morale collectively and Ukriane was in real danger of thier capital being taken while they fought back with their own Soviet-era hand-me-downs. But the Russians failed, and they have continued to fail to this very day. They have failed in the tactical war, and they have failed in the logistical war. They tried to enflamed a culture war within Ukriane with the Russian speakers there and just galvanised everyone into a single national identity, which is possibly their greatest failure...they had reenforced the spirit of their own enemy.
The AFU are proffesional and they are motivated. They know why they are there, and what the stakes are. This is for their home, and everyone they care about, and not about a cabal of self-agrandnising bell-ends in Moscow wanting plant little Russian flags on the the map.
Orcs don't surf
To this flimsy armchair general, it seems like those wishing Ukraine not to have cluster bombs should despair that their main ask hasn't been fulfilled yet - that is, aircraft. If this is all to clear that double line of defensive trenches, then it'd be a lot less morally dubious had they been given the bombers and strike craft that could clear them just as quickly. Or at the very least, attack them without the worry about a lack of air superiority. That in 2023, any army is able to not just keep parity with an enemy, but actively push it back and without the aid of air support, is nothing short of miraculous (again, to this ignorant armchair sitter)
The quicker Ukraine wins this war the less people will die, (both Ukrainian and Russian) therefore a weapon that can help with that is justified.
Russia has been using these munitions since day 1 (on civilians), where is your post bemoaning their extensive use by them?
Mmmm.... Naplam, bet a few Ukrainians would love the smell of that wafting up from ex-Russian positions on the morning breeze.
That...and the bizzare use of zombie Boards accounts that have had no activity for years and then suddenly burst to life on this very thread with pro-Kremlin posts.
It's somewhat clever in the sense that they've learned that we'll automatically reject new-reg posters spreading Russian propiganda. But only somewhat since what they are doing is also clearly artifical.
You're new around here you must be one of the naïve pacifists that's showed up since the cluster thing was in the news. Russia is waging total war on Ukraine who have taken every effort to act inside the modern conventions. Trying to breakdown an existential crisis into a fcuking algebra equation? stay in your lane head.
The sooner they're cleared the better otherwise they sink into the ground when it rains.
Cluster bombs are horrific but if they're weapons of last resort to defend your own land I can understand why you'd use them. Knowing exactly where they were used will help clearing them after the conflict.
It's one new solution. Slap ground penetrating radar on another drone to follow it up. Slap a massive metal roller to a remote controlled tank (or those giant quarry trucks) and roll the fields etc... What I'm getting at is technology has come so far and become so cheap, that there are options. Plenty of videos of farmers in Ukraine jerry-rigging their tractors to be operated remotely. The most heavily mined areas are crop fields, so there will be a priority on them being de-mined.
Yes, it will have to be an international demining effort. And any new improved mine detection implement's are more than welcome of course. But for every new detection / removal method designed, there's an opposite effort in making them even more undetectable. Drones with metal detecting equipment, are for sure a great idea.....no human interaction on the ground at that stage anyway, so lessens the risk. But now they have minimum metal mines, both anti-personnel and anti-tank. So no matter which way you look at it, mines are very bad news.
Allowing Ukraine to use more cluster munitions on putins military as a balance to the repeated use of such weapons by putin's invading force in Ukraine sounds fair to me. It also raises the question in my mind that if we can clearly see putin has turned the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant into a weapon by adding explosives to it would it not be fair to give Ukraine a nuclear warhead with a long range missile that they could use to strike anywhere in russia they choose if putin decides to make use of the weapon he has created in Zaporizhzhia?
Sounds fair to me anyway but I guess it might also be termed as irresponsible logic. Much safer option is just to flood Ukraine with any weapons in stock of its supporters that could help them destroy putin's military as quickly as possible and while unexploded munitions being added to the environment there is not a good thing it is an issue they will have to clean up anyway once they eliminate putin's invaders and liberate their country.
I'm hoping once the war is over there would be an international collation to help Ukraine de-mine all the UXO. There's also the fact the sheer size of Ukraine, that most UXO is buried in fields, so not like people will be strolling through it every day (farming aside). There's also the ingenuity factor, there was a Ukrainian teen demonstrating a drone with a metal detector just programmed to run up and down a field scanning, obviously taking GPS locations of hits.
As for the cluster munitions, Ukraine has stated they will be only used on the fortified Russian defenses and not cities, these for the most part are in fields. They will record all locations they are used. I assume the same field will have to be de-mined eventually and the little bomblets will be less dangerous to the de-mining vehicles than an anti tank mine. People critising Ukraine using cluster munitions (despite both Russia & Ukraine already using them, and Turkey supplying some to Ukraine already) seem to think Ukraine will be indiscriminately firing them into cities or parks etc...
Especially if it helps to bring the war to an end. If you even think for a minute, the sheer Nrs of munition's used these last 16 mths, by both sides, and the % of unexploded munitions, before you even get to the different types of mines, from anti-tank to anti- personal mines, its simply staggering. It will be many years, before Ukraine can be declared mine / UXO free, if ever.
Given the savagery of the Red Army, the brutality the Ukrainians have endured under Putin, the greatly more extreme murder and brutality of the Soviet Union, which he wants to recreate, then everything is on the cards.
When you are fighting for the survival of your country and people, everything should be up for consideration
That would make a nice sound bite, but it's irresponsible logic. You could use the same argument to justify absolutely any type of ordinance. Russian soldiers are always going to be more dangerous to the Ukrainian people than X device, therefore they can use X device with impunity.
Lets break out the anti-personnel mines, mustard gas and napalm so.
To my knowledge, unlike cluster munitions, there are no countries which have signed a prohibition treaty on WP munitions. Hey are, in effect, less legally questionable.
It is true that the use of additional cluster munitions may result in additional post-war casualties, but if they can reduce the amount of during-war casualties, then that becomes a less obvious balance. At least the Ukrainians have an opportunity to record where it laid its own cluster munitions, as opposed to the Russian mines and clusters which are everywhere and doubtless not recorded for post-war efforts.
I would say the exact opposite. It shows Putin that nothing is off the table in terms of weapons that will be used against Russia.
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The trouble with this talk of cluster bombs and hesitation talk. Is it's giving Putin ideas now that he can now get away with having an accident at the nuclear power station and there'll be no retaliation.
This talk should never have come to the service of politicians in the west.
Shows awful weakness and cowardice that Putin will dine on and drive on.
To a large extent, Ukraine are fighting with one arm tied behind their backs. But after a white phosphorus attack, if Ukraine retaliated with an equally deadly weapon, the Orcs would not be long getting the message, when you use Phosphorus, we will retaliate using XXX,. Would not be long before the phosphorus bombing attacks stop. The question is will Ukraine do or even be allowed to do it like this?
I wonder about these arms limitations. If an invaded country was allowed to use Sarin gas, mustard gas, napalm etc. wars would not be so protracted and there would be less suffering and death. If Ukraine could have used these weapons this war might be over by now.
Even to breaking into my house, raping my Wife / Daughter, and robbing my kids? Which is what you are suggesting the Ukrainian's should do, reduce themselves to the same level as the Russian Monsters.
Since a very long time ago, Armies have been using anti-personnel weapons in various guises. The Vietnamese were past masters at it, using just what they had to hand,,,,sharpened bamboo stake being a favourite, and they were very inventive at it too. Get stuck with a sharpened bamboo stick with its end coated in poison, and you were in for a tough time. You can go up the scale then, to using explosives, which Cluster Munitions are, but there are not the only ones. There are many similar death dealin / injury dealing devices out there. Cluster Munition is just a different name for the same thing.
It's a long trip from Moscow to Minsk. Lots of rivers or ditches or ravines. If he did fly doors have a habit of opening
I doubt very much that there's any love lost between the Russian Army and the Kadyrov's ,,going back a very long time.
A Russian soldier in Ukraine is a lot more dangerous to the Ukrainian people than an unexploded cluster munition. Priorities.
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