The issue is not the LLB, it is the need for trains to cross tracks to/from the Howth branch which creates operational difficulties. Terminating trains at Connolly does nothing to address the problem.
Yes, but the Loop Line Bridge affects the smooth running of the trains from HJ to Connolly. Currently they have to wait for platforms to become clear. If the trains terminated on platform 4 then they could run straight in without holding up trains behind them, as well as trains from Maynooth.
But the problem is section between Connolly and HJ, not south of Connolly.
It will massively disincentivise people from using the DART from Howth. Why not run all Howth trains to the terminal platforms in Connolly, and let people change, if they want, from there? They could use the Maynooth trains and the Drogheda trains for their onward journeys. All the infrastructure is already there. The Loop Line Bridge, with its signalling issues, would not be affected. The Howth DART, entering Connolly, would not interfere with platforms 5, 6 or 7. So a Maynooth or Hazelhatch DART could come in at the same time. Leave the Howth Service at 20 minute intervals, so the 4 level crossings around Sutton would not be impacted. The signalling will have to be upgraded anyway. A spacing of 3 minutes from Howth Junction to Connolly should be installed. It would be far easier, and less disruptive to everyone, including Irish Rail, than unloading 150 to 200 people every 10 minutes in Howth Junction.
There is something to be said to close Howth Junction and Kilbarrack and to build a new station between them with 4 platforms to allow trains waiting to cross to Howth to be overtaken.
That boat sailed in the 80's sadly
Wow, Close all the stations in "rougher" areas. Make the DART less convenient for thousands of commuters. Sounds like progress all right!
It was the Iriish Times readers who objected to losing the car parking spaces and parts on the front gardens - nothing to do with Merrion Gates. It was part of a cycling infrastructure project.
The temporary cycle path trial along Strand Road was also scuppered by a judge who said he did not believe it was temporary. Again, parking and traffic was the problem. Ironically, the Strand Road was closed to traffic one way for several months while a new water main was installed. That went ahead with no particular problems. The extra traffic on Merrion Road managed - I assume some evaporated - as it does.
I remember talk about that plan a few years ago and looked like a good proposal. I think it was meeting local objections as per usual and presumed it was parked and kicked down the road.
There may be a point re the ongoing development of Clongriffin, but the existence of the Kilbarrack and Bayside stations still seams absolutely pointless to me.
Kilbarrack as I’ve said is almost literally spitting distance from Howth Junction, you can actually see the platforms clearly if you look up the track. It attracts local gurriers like a magnet, hence why there’s always security guys there. Howth Junction is a similar trouble spot for gurriers, but at least it serves a solid purpose as a junction station. It should be nuked.
There is no raison d'être for Bayside at all. It’s a few minutes walk from both Howth Junction and Sutton, it’s a small island platform station on a very short line that is probably going to be reduced to a shuttle service anyway. Get rid of it and keep the line as two stops.
Finally, I see the reopening of Merrion as imperative. It was one of the original stations on the Dublin-Kingstown line and it has a fine station building that is just left there to rot. The immediate area is also growing, with more hotels, shops and housing going up the past few years. With the level crossing issues being amended I see no reason why it shouldn’t be reopened. Much better to actually have a station there that’s being used than nothing, at the very least.
Bizarre ideas - there are no plans to close any station.
Anyways there’s plenty of housing around Bayside on both sides of the railway and it’s about 1.8km in either direction from the previous and following stations.
Kilbarrack serves estates that would have a lengthy walk to Howth Junction or Raheny and it’s long established now.
The housing around Clongriffin is only to expand and in a big way, either side of the railway line. Closing that would be nuts.
There is already a plan to close Merrion Gates by diverting through the carparks of the catholic church and the carpark on the other side of the track. The design includes a bridge, but could use an underpass.
Strange suggestions. Station demographics can change drastically. Look at Broombridge for example and rapid transit stations need to be close together.
If that station was re-opened, the level-crossing would be closed for a lot longer than at present as it would have to remain closed for the entire time trains are stopped in the station. Seeing as it is already a contentious level-crossing, I suspect your 'a few people who live in the immediate area who want it re-opened' would quickly find themselves in a minority.
Housing density in the vicinity of Bayside and Kilbarrack railway stations is far far higher than in the Merrion vicinity. There wouldn't be enough of a population in that small area to permit the building of a railway station there.
Before any discussions about new station, they need to improve access to all current stations. The platforms are 200m long and, generally, can only be accessed from one point.
Killester is a prime example. A short 80m walk from the N4 bus (in red) to the Dart actually takes 450m (in green).
If Kilbarrack and Howth junction exist a stones throw awa from each other, why can’t Merrion? The old station building is still there, rotting away. It should be renovated and a new station opened at Merrion gates. I know a few people who live in the immediate area who want it reopened.
Wouldn't agree with any of those suggestions. Kilbarrack and Bayside too far from nearby stations and Clongriffin is being completed right now:
"Vanity project" = badly needed housing as there is a housing crisis.
Merrion Gates is far too close to nearby existing stations. 1.8 km between them, you don't need a DART stop every 900 metres.
I don't think anyone is going to hold their breath for those suggestions.
I think that as part of DART+ a few stations should be closed on the current line.
Kilbarrack - magnet for scumbags, only put up in the 70s, absolutely no point when Howth Junction is almost literally a stones throw away.
Bayside - I have never understood the point of this station. Howth Junction and Sutton both in close proximity. Also with the Howth branch line possibly becoming a shuttle service, less reason to keep it.
Clongriffin - no explanation needed. Sh/tty vanity project to serve a Celtic Tiger development that was never completed. The only real purpose for Clongriffin station is to serve as a magnet for local scumbags and to piss off passengers going to Portmarnock and Malahide with a pointless stop. Could possibility have some function if an airport spur is ever built, however.
Also the old Merrion station between Sidney Parade and Booterstown located just beside the level crossing should be reopened.
I won’t hold my breath on any of the above though.
V interesting, thanks!
Williamstown is the townland that Blackrock College is located in.
Historically it was also a fisherman's village before the construction of the D&KR cut it off from the sea, this survives in the area across from the College and beside Martello tower. The wall at back of it was old sea wall:
Would make sense as an interconnection point given the level of development at time (if one looks at old maps on Geohive)
EU has given Irish Rail 1.3m to study four tracking of the North Coastal Line between Connolly and Malahide.
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/730ad-11million-in-european-funding-for-irish-transport-projects/
Note the proposed Woodbrook station is planned to be open in early 2025 (according to local councillors in Shankill)
@gjim did you read the file I linked?
This argument has come up several times already. It would be good not to do it all over, again, in a few months.
Noting above, if all the DART+ plans happen, would a ‘full-length’ DART Underground line be fully needed medium/ long-term?
IF - one of the main aims of DU had been to link the Cork Main-Line - into the City Centre proper(?) - i.e. to link Heuston Station, to the City Centre... could a DU tunnel terminate at Pearse Station area instead,.. and never (or later) have to cross under the Liffey, to go to the Spencer Dock area?
This may at least, have the benefit of bringing Greater Dublin Area (GDA) passengers on the DART+ Southwest line, directly to the south city centre (without having to go to the northside, via the Phoenix Park Tunnel, or via a change onto Luas Red line, or southside via buses),..
and could add the benefit of - new DU rail stations in Christchurch, and St. Stephens Green.
Inter-city travellers could then also have an easier, though indirect link, changing at Heuston Station, onto DART+ Southwest, DU, to the South City Centre area (but not saying that the planned DART+ Southwest link, to northside, via Phoenix Park Tunnel, could not also happen)...
You're missing some key points. The surface Dart line is being built where the DU tunnel was supposed to emerge from the ground. The only place where a tunnel could now emerge (and connect with the Northern line), would cut off the freight line from the Port.
In any case, the Dart+ plans do not include any prep work for a tunnel. The report I linked above is very specific. It basically says "do the prep work now for a tunnel or the tunnel can't happen at this location".
If DART+ Tunnel* ever happens, it will only be possible on the basis of the following, both of which seem to be ignored in the conversation here;
With 1., you excavate deeper through the first SD station to create the approach to the final SD station further south. The relocation could be minimised by keeping the DART+ West SD station operational for as long as possible. This means excavating the TBM extract shaft and new SD station south of Mayor Street before doing any further work north of Mayor Street, i.e. SD station continues to operate north of Mayor Street while works happen south of it.
2. then facilitats 1. because you don't need as much space at SD. Starting tunnelling in the city centre never made sense, it means all spoil has to be brought out from the city centre and all materials need to be brought into the city centre before entering the tunnel. It is far better to start tunnelling on the west side of the city near the motorway network which will make removal of soil and delivery of materials much easier. It also minimises disruption at SD as per 1. above.
*DU is dead, people need to stop thinking in terms of it. DART+ Tunnel will be a new project and not replicating previous intentions.
Dart Underground, if it goes ahead, and I'm not sure it will*, will go back to the start. Full consultations, full redesign, full route analysis.
I'd also guess, seeing as they've released their planning holds on all locations, that all stations bar SSG will be mined out, with no need for a large hole in the ground, unlike Metrolink. Pretty sure it would have required some mining anyway, but that's confirmed it in my eyes.
*The reason I am no longer sure if it'll happen is the capacity numbers. Dart+ will be that number from about 15000/20000(I can't remember the exact number) all the way up to 60000. DU will bring that number from 60000 up to 80000, and probably cost the same as the entire D+ project. Just not sure that those numbers can be justified anytime in the next 30 years.
What characteristics have the soil got that make it impossible to excavate?
Has soil like this been excavated anywhere in the world before?
I presume this means a TBM wouldn’t be able to excavate this soil either for the tunnel anyway- if this indeed where the tunnel would go?
It's not 11m, it's 11m+8.5m+5m. That's almost 25m.
