Enjoy!!
Old thread here......
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057962937/mayo-gaa-discussion-part-4#latest
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Green Peter - Permanent
Man Vs ManUre until 9/05/23
He's not that rash in the tackle but I agree he can improve - still fouling outside the scoring zone can be very useful - just look at Kevin McLoughlin, he has made a career out of it. Eoghan needs to learn how to do it as slyly as Kevin does. Of course his shooting is inconsistent, he's a wing back (Paddy Durcan is inconsistent too), but like I said he has the courage to both get himself in the position and then actually shoot. You'll miss some but he also scores lots. Didn't he carry the ball forward and offload this weekend just gone in the build-up to the crucial McBrien goal?
They're all "team men and dedicated to the role" - again intangibles. Composed and safe but doesn't take any risks which is what you have to do to win the match. Yes, he is a good aggressive tackler. He did so little v Galway and we have players on the bench like Hession who have the courage to take the ball off the keeper under pressure and then break out of defense with pace - helped us win the match. I am on his case to show how people can be so harsh on the player who tries to make something happen while rarely do the same to the guy he takes the "safe" option.
Carney can do all those things you mention but he won zero high balls in the Galway game and was largely anonymous - following on from a similar display against Cork. My opinion is he is lucky he is competing in a weak line (half forward) and not an ultra competitive one (full-forward).
What is intangible about it? He spots holes and free men and covers them before they become a problem. He organises defensively, ie recognising mismatches with opponents and fixing them - anyone who seen his role in handling peter cooke at the weekend will have seen this in action.
He is proactive when protecting his fullback line and does so intelligently. You talk about turnovers, but you dont get that his positioning has probably led to that turnover by squeezing the gap the ball can be played into. These things are not intangibles, they are just things that some people cant see - there is a difference.
Marking-wise, he matches up with a very wide range of opponents, which again is a hugely useful tool to have. But again, some people arent really aware of the importance of stuff like that. Im not trying to be smart, it is just a reality. Those types of players never get much credit from the masses but they are a huge part of the efficiency of the team, hence why so many managers pick him, or why jose mourinho and alex ferguson were vying it out for the likes of a jon obi mikel.
Carney was simply drowned out against those two teams - both of whom are huge around the middle, pack his area with bodies and pack the back also. Diarmuid oconnor was poor in those specific areas also in the galway game truth be told. Conroy maher and cooke are serious ball winners while tierney and comer are massive also. It was a big ask for anyone.
But looking at his skillset, he is a guy that could hurt Cluxton's kickouts, as he tends to go for individuals on the run. Carney has great mobility and could definitely steal a few. Who would you play instead of him out of interest?
Again, I don't profess to know more the than Horan, Rochford, or McStay. His worth is over-stated, in my humble opinion - I think that's what internet forums are for and they'd be pretty boring if we just said nothing.
Coen scored a point in 2 finals (2020 and 2021, one was a mark) plus a point against Kerry last year in the QF. He has scored 14 points in 44 championship appearances since 2016. McLaughlin has 1 goal and 7 points scored in 16 championship appearances since 2020 - plus man of the match in a Covid Connacht final of 2020.
Im not interested in my defender scoring a point when he is letting in 2 scoring chances at the other end to do it, that would be my own personal view of it. What is the net result there? -0.01? It is a team game at the end of the day. We have good scoring forwards these days, the defenders should be giving them the ball to shoot. Id be more interested in their free count, their turnover count and their attitude towards the protection of their own goals
If you're putting Coen in a team to score points you ain't that smart.
The fact that he does score the odd point in big games is a bonus.
But McLaughlin does both, his athleticism allows for it. Last week he didn't score but got forward so many times to help his forwards (team game after all) but also made a number of turnovers. Who was he marking - Heaney? who didn't score. As I said, he can tidy up on his tackling but being aggressive is important - Chris Barrett was like this at the beginning.
This is my point, posters have this view of Coen that we all have to accept how limited he is from an attacking perspective (and let's not forget defensive too given you can't put him on someone really fast) and then all criticism should be tempered, but McLaughlin is not being judged by the same standards. McLaughlin does massive defensive work too, covering, hassling, and making turnovers.
To be honest, I'd love to see Flynn at 10, DOC at 11, and Bob Touhy at 12 with the license to challenge at midfield for Dublin kickouts. He is an excellent fielder and very mobile. Also, likes to kick the ball.
He's an excellent man marker, he marked and kept scoreless Diarmuid Connolly at his absolute peak. His lack of pace is always called out but it's very hard to point to occasions where it's exploited because he reads the game well.
He's been a started for Mayo for 5/6 years now, that's three different management teams.
But you're probably right
Like I said, he is not an "excellent" man-maker. If he was he would be given the job of keeping Con quiet next weekend. He's never given the job of marking the opposition's best forward. I'm not saying he doesn't read the game well but his lack of pace means he can't be left one-on-one with someone pacy and also means he can never take the ball off the keeper when we're under pressure, like Hession or Eoghan or Paddy or Callinan can. He can't beat a man a kick it over the bar like all those can as well. His skill set is limited. He is picked because he is safe and maybe I under-rate that quality in a player but my original point was about the heat that Eoghan was taking despite having a much bigger positive influence than someone like Coen who was so quiet in the game bar his fisted point.
You can't possibly be calling Coen's skill set limited while also claiming Eoghan McLaughlins are solid
The team all work to the best of their abilities, honestly I’m glad we’ve Coen and McLaughlin to call on for specific jobs. With these high intensity games close together my question is, are there any injuries to the current squad and how that’ll be covered? Dublin will be waiting for this one….
He's very frequently called out by top level coaches, managers & players (teammates and opponents) around the country as one of the most underrated players. A fair bet you could be underrating his play.
"He's never given the job of marking the opposition's best forward."
Sure he has. Multiple times over the years when we were lacking better options. He's done solid jobs on physically imposing inside men dangerous on the edge of the square like Michael Murphy, Rian O'Neill & Damien Comer or lads further out who tend to pull strings like Diarmuid Connelly, Matthew Tierney or Johnny Heaney. We won't tend to use him on the square at the moment, we have options like David, Rory or Donnacha that can handle various matchups we've in the past had to turn to Stephen to fill, but saying he's never given the job when he's done it frequently in the past is inaccurate.
When you compare him to speedsters based on speed, or to attacking defenders on attacking ability, he won't 'win' (should be noted he's gone from one of our least progressive passing defenders to one of our better head up scanners for the new system waiting for the right penetrating ball & making the right choice consistently - complaints on his attacking ability are a bit outdated based on the last 6 months) but that's not how the game works. It's about a total package and what Stephen brings isn't matched 1 to 1 by anyone else in the squad (in the same way what Eoghan, Paddy, Enda, Sam or David bring isn't matched 1 to 1). He won't tend to blitz past a defender at 100mph but he'll quite often surge down the field completely unmarked where the 'faster' opposition don't have the legs to keep up with his running any more.
Try and get to a quiet challenge game at some point and stand near the Mayo 45 or defensive D. Just listening to Stephen barking orders to the surrounding lads (he was doing it to veterans like Boyler, Keegan and Vaughan even as a young fella any time they switched off momentarily) you'll get a masterclass in top level defending. He does his own role well (with that role varying from filing gaps from 2 to 9 and doing the donkey work all over the pitch) but just as importantly he dramatically cuts down on 'mistakes' (be it defensive positioning or dropping intensity) by the others around him making them (and the team) better.
Some Hill tickets available if anyone still needs tickets
Sean Deane steps down as minor manager and expressions of interest being sought for the U20 position... Seems inevitable
When have Hession or Callinan beat a man and kicked it over the bar? Not for Mayo anyway.
Does under the bar count?
See Callinan beating two Galway players in injury time to take the ball out of defense in the lead-up to James Carr's winning score at the weekend? 19 years of age and doing that injury time of a knockout game. That's leadership.
In terms of ability and leadership , Callinan to me is alot like Sean Kelly when he first broke through
He has a very high ceiling. Would like to see him get on the scoreboard soon but he's probably the best young defender we've produced since Keith Higgins (or Oisin Mullin if you're being particular!).
The closer it gets, the more excited I feel about it. Should be a great game either way and I feel both teams won't be lacking any hunger. There might be an edge to it, but that's what you want imo. Looking forward to it now.
Sunday's team & subs announced
Mayo (All-Ireland SFC quarter-final v Dublin, 2/7/2023): Colm Reape (Knockmore); Jack Coyne (Ballyhaunis), David McBrien (Ballaghaderreen), Padraig O’Hora (Ballina Stephenites); Paddy Durcan (Castlebar Mitchels, captain), Stephen Coen (Hollymount/Carramore), Eoghan McLaughlin (Westport); Matthew Ruane (Breaffy), Diarmuid O’Connor (Ballintubber); Jason Doherty (Burrishoole), Jack Carney (Kilmeena), Jordan Flynn (Crossmolina Deel Rovers); Aidan O’Shea (Breaffy), Tommy Conroy (The Neale), Ryan O’Donoghue (Belmullet). Subs: Rory Byrne (Castlebar Mitchels), Sam Callinan (Ballina Stephenites), James Carr (Ardagh), Enda Hession (Garrymore), Conor Loftus (Crossmolina Deel Rovers), Fionn McDonagh (Westport), Darren McHale (Knockmore), Donnacha McHugh (Castlebar Mitchels), Kevin McLoughlin (Knockmore, Cillian O’Connor (Ballintubber), Bob Tuohy (Castlebar Mitchels).
Basically O'Hora and Ruane in for Callinan and K-Mac, with a bit of positional shuffling to accommodate
I expect Mayo to win , more confident about this one than I was about Galway
Team up
Coen in at 6 and I can see hession strating
I like the look of that team, and a powerful bench to come in as well
Unless he injured, I think Callinan starts - maybe for Doc?
Even those aren’t good stats
Assists is a bs stat in Gaelic Games. Pass leading to shot coupled with frees won leading to a shot free is more important. Can’t be having a player being punished for someone else missing a shot after setting a chance up.
A blind turnover number doesn’t tell a story either. Possessions per turnover is more important.
That is a good bench to call on. Very arguable that the following should be first team players:-
Enda Hession, Sam Callinan, Cillian O'Connor, James Carr, Conor Loftus and Donnacha McHugh. If those 6 were on the team instead of a current 6, I don't think it would weaken the team in any way. Great choices to have.
If Hession does start, maybe a place in the half forwards tracking Jack McCaffrey might be an option, and trying to get McCaffrey facing his own goal with Endas pacy runs. But it's not as easy as it seems to change a back into a forward and expect it to work straight away. I know Mayo did it with Keith Higgins some time ago, and it worked sometimes, but other times the game just passed him by. Going to be a bit of pressure on Ruane on Sunday - eyes will be on him to see how he reacts after being dropped for the Galway game. It will be great if he responds in the positive, and we can say afterwards that maybe being benched had a good result. But if he has another anonymous day, it will be a further nail in the coffin that we will need to find an alternative.
I would have a similar opinion to you for the very same reasons but this is in the minority here. i don't buy this captain of minor, mind the house crack, not his job etc. He is in senior now, you attack when you get the chance and positions means very little these days. He has a lot of positives but it is the attacking threat for me is the big negative... i don't mean scores but the ability to attack. I was delighted that he attacked the last day for the first score and got a score but I would love to see it more. I can understand as well why he won't as he lacks significant pace and needs to be careful/play a game to not have these exposed. Management are happy with that so for him, that is all he is concerned about and that is what I would do as well in his shoes.
Is that good enough to win the big prize, only time will tell, but he is just one cog in the wheel as well.
